M10X-Z experience - the good and the bad. 375 rounds UPDATES POSTS 14, 17, 18, 56, 63

Can-down said:
Perhaps "they" is the correct pronoun.... but it looks like the name of the person is actually Sherrina.
If the quoted response is indeed accurate, it's a good example of how to alienate customers.

The firearms industry is interesting in that some manufactures go above and beyond even when the person with the problem is not the original buyer, and then others are quick to wash their hands of any responsibility and take the first exit possible.
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That was a direct cut-and-paste of the email from this Sherrina person, and yes, indeed, it is a perfect example of both how to alienate customers and how to paint your company as one "quick to wash their hands of any responsibility and take the first possible exit" (I like the way you phrased that :) )

My limited contact with the new person "MM Industries" via email is looking a whole lot more reasonable. As I said previously, I'll provide updates on my customer service experience as things progress.
 
CobraGT said:
That was a direct cut-and-paste of the email from this Sherrina person, and yes, indeed, it is a perfect example of both how to alienate customers and how to paint your company as one "quick to wash their hands of any responsibility and take the first possible exit" (I like the way you phrased that :) )

My limited contact with the new person "MM Industries" via email is looking a whole lot more reasonable. As I said previously, I'll provide updates on my customer service experience as things progress.
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Well hopefully buddy won't let a few hours wasted on CGN sour him from trying to do the hard work of rebuilding a bad reputation..... it's hard to imagine that their customer service could get worse then Sherrina's example.

Good luck to all involved!
 
Well, the Gen 2 M10X that I bought unfired from a previous owner in the EE has arrived. I bought it just prior to the Barrel deflection issue coming to light, so was understandably nervous while awaiting its arrival! I immediately stripped the rifle to check for Barrel deviation and found that my barrel is slightly off-center .076" to the Right when measured at the Flash-Comp. As this is less than 1/10", I am not sure whether or not my optics will compensate. I did not attempt to "push" the Aluminum Rail to the Right in order to better align it with the Barrel before tightening the Grub Screw, as that is what is causing the sudden "jumps" in windage - people are stressing the Rail to the side, and then the Grub Screw lets go while firing and the Rail pops back into the un-stressed center position. I simply tightened the Grub Screw once I had the Pivot Screw re-installed. That way, the rail (with the optic mounted) does not move in relation to the Barrel when handling and firing the rifle. As others have pointed out, the smart thing for M+M to do would be to press-fit the Aluminum Rail to the Steel Receiver so that there is no more slop between the two. All removing the Rail does is provide improved access to the interior of the Receiver when cleaning. It is no big deal to service the M10X as a one-piece Receiver system. I will strongly consider JB-Welding my Rail and Receiver together once I first determine whether or not Warranty service is required to improve the rifle's accuracy or function. If warranty service is required, I obviously don't want to void the warranty before I receive that corrective service! As the M+M warranty is not transferrable (boo!), the original owner of the rifle has agreed to send it in on my behalf if required. I will know this coming Monday after my inaugural range trip with this particular rifle.

As I stripped the rifle down to check for Barrel Deviation, I could not help but be impressed with the M10X's fit and finish, as well as the elegant simpicity of the design. It really is quite clever how the designer was able to reduce the parts-count by half as compared to an AKM! The machining on the Gen 2 Bolt is impeccable, as it is on the Bolt Carrier and Gas Assembly parts. The OD Green CeraKote finish is smooth and blemish-free, very professionally-applied. Quite frankly, from a design and manufacturing perspective there is little or nothing to fault M+M on. Where this rifle falls down is in its pre-shipment Quality Control (eg. visually-identifiable Deviated Barrels) and its basic performance. If a firearm is not reliable out of the box, then all of the clever design and careful manufacturing is for naught! Sadly, this currently appears to be the case with the M10X, which to date has demonstrated very inconsistent performance and reliability across the 18.6"-barrelled Canadian fleet.

Issues to date appear to be centered around:

a. Deviated Barrels (manufacturer must replace affected Receivers)
b. Light primer strikes (resolve by cutting coils off of Firing Pin Spring, or by installing a stronger Hammer Spring for hard mil-spec primers)
c. Feeding issues (resolve by testing and removing troublesome mags. Use PMags vice steel. Do not "ride" the Charging Handle)
d. Extraction issues with Steel-cased Norinco ammo (resolve by switching to Brass-cased ammo or Barnaul Steel-cased)
e. Ejection Issues - Stovepipes (possibly due to overgassing and high Bolt Carrier velocity. Resolve with stronger Ejector Spring and/or Hammer Spring)

Consistent with the opinions of many on CGN, a rifle is nothing if not reliable and therefore trustworthy. It has to work when needed, and right now there is no guarantee out of the box that an M10X will do so. As things currenty stand, each rifle must be individually test-fired and then carefully "tweaked" with stronger springs, brass-cased ammo, polymer mags, and/or other adjustments in order to reach a level of acceptable reliabllity. Improved QC at the M+M factory would likely go a long ways towards improving immediate reliabiity, as would the installation of those stronger Trigger and Hammer Springs right from the get-go. That the rifle now ships with a PMag is a definite step in the right direction, but there is still much work to be done by M+M. This is needed both to improve the rifle's reliabiity, and then to rebuild consumer trust in the company and its platform.

Test-firing on Monday will tell the tale of my particular M10X. Assuming that the Barrel is not so deviated that my optics cannot compensate, I am confident in my ability to get the rifle up and running in the face of minor issues. We shall see. Watch and shoot.....


20220415-142341.jpg
 
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^
Nice summary!

Assuming it holds zero properly, it would be interesting to see a fully refitted M10x in comparison with a Type 81 fitted with an optic on the now in prototype Beryl-style rail from TNA, and eventually the R18 in 7.62x39 mm, however long that takes to come out.
 
I agree.

I think it's probably worth the factory only changing 1 thing at a time.

For myself, I think they should start with the fixturing for the barrel/trunnion threading operation and making sure it's correct in relation to the receiver.

I don't mind the grub screw as it makes it easy to swap handguards (not that there are many options), but I fully understand that the receiver being a press fit + pinned in would make it much more rigid. However unless they fix the barrel alignment issue, pressing the receiver in, wouldn't do much.
 
CobraGT said:
My limited contact with the new person "MM Industries" via email is looking a whole lot more reasonable. As I said previously, I'll provide updates on my customer service experience as things progress.
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im glad he said he will square you away.
 
CobraGT said:
[FONT=&]So, I originally sighted this rifle in when I got it at somewhere between 30 and 50 yards, and noticed at the time that it was shooting to the right of where I would have expected based on both the iron sights and optic I had installed. I didn't think much of it, and adjusted the optic to match the point of impact. However, after seeing a post by Wolverine Supplies yesterday noting that their barrel was not aligned properly, I took a closer look at mine, and the barrel is visibly canted to the right when compared to the handguard. I took it out again today and tried it at 100 and 200 yards, and despite it being zeroed as it was, it is shooting quite a bit right at 100, and considerably farther to the right at 200 yards. It's not as far off target as Wolverine's seems to be, but it's still not hitting anywhere near where it should be.

I contacted M+M this afternoon - I'll let y'all know how well they stand behind their product!![/FONT]
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I’m trying to figure this out in my physics challenged brain. If the barrel is canted to the right and the optic rail isn’t straight (off to the left), so long as the optic is zeroed at 30 or 50, wouldn’t it also be zeroed for 100 and 200?

Ugh… I should have paid attention in school.

This is a real question, I can’t figure it out.

Edit to add:

A precision rifle forum has the answers: it puts the sight off axis, and that does cause deviation the farther out you shoot. It shouldn’t be that much tho, an inch or two at 300 from a 50 yard zero.

Being five feet off target, or 8 inches, means something is shifting.
 
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Bartok5 said:
Well, the Gen 2 M10X that I bought unfired from a previous owner in the EE has arrived. I bought it just prior to the Barrel deflection issue coming to light, so was understandably nervous while awaiting its arrival! I immediately stripped the rifle to check for Barrel deviation and found that my barrel is slightly off-center .076" to the Right when measured at the Flash-Comp. As this is less than 1/10", I am not sure whether or not my optics will compensate. I did not attempt to "push" the Aluminum Rail to the Right in order to better align it with the Barrel before tightening the Grub Screw, as that is what is causing the sudden "jumps" in windage - people are stressing the Rail to the side, and then the Grub Screw lets go while firing and the Rail pops back into the un-stressed center position. I simply tightened the Grub Screw once I had the Pivot Screw re-installed. That way, the rail (with the optic mounted) does not move in relation to the Barrel when handling and firing the rifle. As others have pointed out, the smart thing for M+M to do would be to press-fit the Aluminum Rail to the Steel Receiver so that there is no more slop between the two. All removing the Rail does is provide improved access to the interior of the Receiver when cleaning. It is no big deal to service the M10X as a one-piece Receiver system. I will strongly consider JB-Welding my Rail and Receiver together once I first determine whether or not Warranty service is required to improve the rifle's accuracy or function. If warranty service is required, I obviously don't want to void the warranty before I receive that corrective service! As the M+M warranty is not transferrable (boo!), the original owner of the rifle has agreed to send it in on my behalf if required. I will know this coming Monday after my inaugural range trip with this particular rifle.

As I stripped the rifle down to check for Barrel Deviation, I could not help but be impressed with the M10X's fit and finish, as well as the elegant simpicity of the design. It really is quite clever how the designer was able to reduce the parts-count by half as compared to an AKM! The machining on the Gen 2 Bolt is impeccable, as it is on the Bolt Carrier and Gas Assembly parts. The OD Green CeraKote finish is smooth and blemish-free, very professionally-applied. Quite frankly, from a design and manufacturing perspective there is little or nothing to fault M+M on. Where this rifle falls down is in its pre-shipment Quality Control (eg. visually-identifiable Deviated Barrels) and its basic performance. If a firearm is not reliable out of the box, then all of the clever design and careful manufacturing is for naught! Sadly, this currently appears to be the case with the M10X, which to date has demonstrated very inconsistent performance and reliability across the 18.6"-barrelled Canadian fleet.

Issues to date appear to be centered around:

a. Deviated Barrels (manufacturer must replace affected Receivers)
b. Light primer strikes (resolve by cutting coils off of Firing Pin Spring, or by installing a stronger Hammer Spring for hard mil-spec primers)
c. Feeding issues (resolve by testing and removing troublesome mags. Use PMags vice steel. Do not "ride" the Charging Handle)
d. Extraction issues with Steel-cased Norinco ammo (resolve by switching to Brass-cased ammo or Barnaul Steel-cased)
e. Ejection Issues - Stovepipes (possibly due to overgassing and high Bolt Carrier velocity. Resolve with stronger Ejector Spring and/or Hammer Spring)

Consistent with the opinions of many on CGN, a rifle is nothing if not reliable and therefore trustworthy. It has to work when needed, and right now there is no guarantee out of the box that an M10X will do so. As things currenty stand, each rifle must be individually test-fired and then carefully "tweaked" with stronger springs, brass-cased ammo, polymer mags, and/or other adjustments in order to reach a level of acceptable reliabllity. Improved QC at the M+M factory would likely go a long ways towards improving immediate reliabiity, as would the installation of those stronger Trigger and Hammer Springs right from the get-go. That the rifle now ships with a PMag is a definite step in the right direction, but there is still much work to be done by M+M. This is needed both to improve the rifle's reliabiity, and then to rebuild consumer trust in the company and its platform.

Test-firing on Monday will tell the tale of my particular M10X. Assuming that the Barrel is not so deviated that my optics cannot compensate, I am confident in my ability to get the rifle up and running in the face of minor issues. We shall see. Watch and shoot.....
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Great summary, as usual. I'm looking forward to seeing what you experience with regard to reliability and accuracy.
 
JeffMan said:
I’m trying to figure this out in my physics challenged brain. If the barrel is canted to the right and the optic rail isn’t straight (off to the left), so long as the optic is zeroed at 30 or 50, wouldn’t it also be zeroed for 100 and 200?

Ugh… I should have paid attention in school.

This is a real question, I can’t figure it out.

Edit to add:

A precision rifle forum has the answers: it puts the sight off axis, and that does cause deviation the farther out you shoot. It shouldn’t be that much tho, an inch or two at 300 from a 50 yard zero.

Being five feet off target, or 8 inches, means something is shifting.
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That calculation is incorrect. I don't think anything is shifting, or if it is, I don't think it's the problem with varying POI at different distances. Geometry of this rifle and handguard is interesting - if the barrel is canted, then the barrel is actually angled within the handguard at roughly the halfway point, meaning that (in my rifle's case) the POI is shifting 1mm (probably less than 1mm in reality) to the right for every 300 mm the bullet travels in relation to the expected POI in the optic. The optic is mounted at a different angle than the barrel, as it's on the aluminum shell. I'm not explaining it well, but it makes sense in my head. I need to draw a diagram...

EDITED TO ADD:

 
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Well, I had my (then) unfired M10X out today for the first time. I put 160 rounds through it, mostly Norinco Red Box copper-washed steel case, but also some bulk surplus copper-wash steel case and 20 rounds of brass case. My rifle started off strong, but after 25 flawless rounds it started having a stoppage emptying every other 5-round mag. The mags were a mix of 5/20 and 5/30 AK PMags which worked fine. The stoppages were mostly failures to eject or stove-pipes. I cranked the gas over to the Adverse setting and the stoppages went away except for the last round in about half of the mags that I fired. Those last rounds would either stove-pipe or hang-up inside the Receiver, which was very odd as the rifle fed and ejected perfectly for 4 out of every 5 rounds fired. It choked ejecting the last round when there was no ammo in the magazine. It was no big deal to clear the last round if it hung up, but it would seriously slow down a competition reload! Sorry, no photos - I was too busy shooting and clearing the last round!

Overall, I was reasonably satisfied with the rifle's reliabiity once I cranked up the gas setting. The occasional hang-up ejecting the last round is troublesome and worthy of further investigation, although I suspect that it would take a high-speed camera to get to the bottom of it. Perhaps I will try the slow-motion settings on my phone camera the next time I am out if I have an assistant to do the firing for me. I remain hopeful that as the rifle breaks in and the action smooths out it will perform as well on the Normal gas setting as it currently does on the Adverse setting. Time will tell. Ejection was pretty consistent at the 4:00 O'Clock position, so no issues with Bolt/Carrier velocity nor is the rifle apparently over-gassed - even on the Adverse setting. My rifle's chamber seems to be tight on the Norinco Red Box fodder, as evidenced by 2 hard-extractions, one of which had to be "mortared" to clear. The other was so stuck that the Extractor was tearing off the rim of the empty casing in the chamber. I tapped it out with a cleaning rod and inspected the casing for anything out of the ordinary, but nothing - no evidence of a burr or anything else that would cause the casing to stick to the Chamber walls. Cycling the Norinco ammo through a tight chamber might just be enough to cause those last-round ejection issues, a theory that the use of different ammo will either support or disprove the next time I get out. I have 200 rounds of Barnaul 7.62x39mm ammo inbound, which I will add to the experimentation mix.

A detailed inspection of the rifle post-shoot indicated no areas nor points of accelerated wear. Everything appeared to be normal for a mere 160 rounds down the pipe. Accuracy was disappointing, but no worse than the first M10X I owned a few years ago when they first came out. The groups looked great at 25m as I zeroed my 1-8x Vortex Strike Eagle LPVO, with rounds frequently stacking on top of each other. However, when we moved over to 100m those groupings expanded from 1" to 4" and sometimes 5" on average (with declared flyers). So, typical performance in my experience for an M10X firing Norinco copper-washed steel-case ammo. I'd have liked tighter groups, but am not keen to pay for premium ammo just to find out if the M10X is capable of better than 4" groups at 100m. That is acceptable to me for plinking steel out to 200 and maybe even 300m, which is all I wanted the M10X for. I have other rifles that reach out and touch things far away. The M10X is a plinker, notwithstanding its ludicrous "Designated Marksman Rifle" moniker assigned by the manufacturer. Wishful thinking, LOL!!

Well, that's it for now. I will have more to say when I get out with the M10X again using Barnaul ammo and a mix of Steel magazines just to keep things interesting....
 
Sounds like you have to buy premium ammo to get it to work properly. They also don't have Norinco ammo in the US I guess. As to groups, oh well, that sucks for the price. Just buy an SKS and put it into a fab defense stock, lol.
 
scianna54 said:
Sounds like you have to buy premium ammo to get it to work properly. They also don't have Norinco ammo in the US I guess. As to groups, oh well, that sucks for the price. Just buy an SKS and put it into a fab defense stock, lol.
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As a matter of fact, they don't have Chinese Norinco ammunition for sale in the USA. The new "Evil Empire" and all that....

Most reports I've read say that the N10X runs best on Russian Barnaul ammo with a lacquered steel case. Hardly what I'd call "premium" ammo....

I have an SKS but it bores me. I'd much rather troubleshoot the M10X, which is actually a very clever design and well worth a bit of tweaking .
 
Customer service update!

Sherrina (CSA Admin) (M+M Industries)
Apr 18, 2022, 10:55 AM MDT
Hi ,

I've discussed this issue with our engineers and we deeply apologize. We say that the warranty has been voided because of a safety hazard. However, we really do want you to be happy with your product as well as us. We would like to send you the parts needed to get your rifle fixed and working properly. Does this sound like a good plan?

We would send you a stronger hammer spring and new firing pin spring and ejector spring. This would make sure you have everything up to the latest standard.

The engineer was just in Canada and test fired ammo there and discovered that some of the Norinco red box ammo was firing with lower pressures giving a undergassed failure which would require it to cycle properly in position II.

In order to see if you're having a canted barrel or extrusion is seated off the best point of action is to loosen up the grub screw on the lower side of the handguard in front of the hinge point and see if it can be adjusted left to right or right to left and reset to 50 in. lbs. Normally, judging from the extrusion it difficult to determine if the barrel is canted. Normally what matters is that the barrel is running parallel all along the handguard.
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And my response:

Hi Sherrina,

Sure, any support you can provide in the form of parts would be helpful.

I would still also be interested in purchasing a replacement bolt, if mine is not the latest version, to do some comparison shooting for my ongoing review on the canadiangunnutz forum. Can you confirm based on my serial number whether my bolt is the latest version? Mine is a silver color. I understand the newer ones appear different due to a newer heat treatment process.

I've corresponded with Charles as well; please pass the following on to him.

Charles, I'd like to encourage you not to give up on the Canadiangunnutz forum, despite your rather negative experience with the administrators. Many members found your presence there to be quite reassuring for the M+M brand. I think it could be very beneficial to your customers, potential customers, and M+M itself for the company to have an ongoing presence there. Many of us in Canada really want to purchase your product, and confidence in quality control AND knowing that the company will provide support if there are issues goes a long way toward reassuring hesitant potential buyers. I honestly think you could sell twenty times the number of rifles you have so far in Canada if the somewhat variable QC of these rifles is addressed and customer support is readily helpful.

With regard to my slightly off-center barrel, I have adjusted the aluminum shell with the grub screw so that the barrel is centered within the handguards at the point that the barrel clears the handguards. If the shell doesn't shift, that should help. That being said, the barrel IS in fact canted - after removing the barrel/upper receiver assembly from the aluminum shell, I measured it on a flat surface and it is canted around 1mm to the right in relation to where it should be. There is no real 'fix' for this, aside from replacing the barrel/upper receiver assembly, but it's good enough for now.

Thanks again,
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They blame the ammo saying the Chinese copper washed is under gased. But the sks and vz58 run flawlessly on it. And under gassed ammo would not cause rounds to weld themselves to the chamber walls. The chamber tolerances are too tight on the m10x
 
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