"M14" hunting loads, commercial brass

J

Jmiverson

Regular
Rating - 98.4%
60   1   0
Location
Regina
Hey guys, I would like to work up a hunting load for my tuned up Norinco m305. I have chosen 165gr. Barnes TSX, Winchester commercial brass, IMR 4895, Rem 7-1/2 primer. I have no idea where to start. I have loaded for this rifle, but with 155gr. Match bullets.

Now, I understand service rifles need less powder to keep everything running good. But all the data I have found is for match pills and LC brass. Any ideas? I need some sort of min. to max. load to go off of.

If this is better suited for the reloading forum, my apologies.
 
In my experience winchester brass has a fairly large case capasity. My guess with that component combo you'll need 43.5 grains or so to get it going around 2600 fps. You'd be more than safe starting at 41 or 41.5 grs and working up from there.

HTH
 
If you are using commercial .308 brass, then use the tables in your reloading manual for .308 Win. I would also check Barnes, to see what data they have for that bullet.
 
In all honesty, I have dies but I don't load for my M14. A $20 box of Winchester or Federal gives me a 3 inch group at 100 yards with iron sights, which is pretty much the same as what my bulk ammo shoots. Why bother load when I wont get more than a 150 yard shot in the bush
 
Jmiverson said:
Hey guys, I would like to work up a hunting load for my tuned up Norinco m305. I have chosen 165gr. Barnes TSX, Winchester commercial brass, IMR 4895, Rem 7-1/2 primer. I have no idea where to start. I have loaded for this rifle, but with 155gr. Match bullets.

Now, I understand service rifles need less powder to keep everything running good. But all the data I have found is for match pills and LC brass. Any ideas? I need some sort of min. to max. load to go off of.

If this is better suited for the reloading forum, my apologies.
Click to expand...

First, the thing to remember about the Norinco M14's is that their chambers do not meet any military's standards, let alone civilian standards. New, out of the box, they will no only take, but swallow the Nato NO GO Gauge (meaning your chamber is so over sized that the barrel should be worn out now and thrown away). On top of that, the chambers are not perfectly round, so if you reuse once or twice fired brass, A. reloading the brass will be difficult due to your bass being stretched. B. Only use your brass twice then throw away.

Follow the rules set down by the Americans for the M14, as they have been playing with it since the late 50's.

http://www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html

Keep in mind, that a pie plate is more than good enough if you can reliably place rounds on it out to 300 yards.
 
mcpherson284 said:
First, the thing to remember about the Norinco M14's is that their chambers do not meet any military's standards, let alone civilian standards. New, out of the box, they will no only take, but swallow the Nato NO GO Gauge (meaning your chamber is so over sized that the barrel should be worn out now and thrown away). On top of that, the chambers are not perfectly round, so if you reuse once or twice fired brass, A. reloading the brass will be difficult due to your bass being stretched. B. Only use your brass twice then throw away.

Follow the rules set down by the Americans for the M14, as they have been playing with it since the late 50's.

http://www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html

Keep in mind, that a pie plate is more than good enough if you can reliably place rounds on it out to 300 yards.
Click to expand...

Can't say that I agree entirely with this. On an admittedly small sample of Norcs I've found that the chamber length can vary from rifle to rifle but many of them are very good. From a reloading perspective, a slightly long chamber is not an issue if you adjust your sizing dies to only bump your case shoulders back a few thousandths. Even so on my M305s, resizing to maximum SAAMI length, I've gotten 10 reloads from various batches of brass with no stress signs and only about 5% culled from the batch. I wouldn't recommend that everyone do this, but it just contrasts with mcphersons comment. Even the US guys say that 4x fired is fine.

In regard to chamber concentricity, this is the first that I've heard of this. McPherson, can you tell me if this observation comes from personal experience or from a source to which you can provide a link? I'd like to hear more.
 
Perhaps consider sending 3 spent casings to Hungry (Tactical Teacher). He will measure your headspace for you. Once you know what it is, you can make a more informed decision on if you should reload, and how many firings a brass case should have before you throw it out.

Defintetly read up on the book my zediker. lots of good info in there.
 
Pr589 said:
Can't say that I agree entirely with this. On an admittedly small sample of Norcs I've found that the chamber length can vary from rifle to rifle but many of them are very good. From a reloading perspective, a slightly long chamber is not an issue if you adjust your sizing dies to only bump your case shoulders back a few thousandths. Even so on my M305s, resizing to maximum SAAMI length, I've gotten 10 reloads from various batches of brass with no stress signs and only about 5% culled from the batch. I wouldn't recommend that everyone do this, but it just contrasts with mcphersons comment. Even the US guys say that 4x fired is fine.

In regard to chamber concentricity, this is the first that I've heard of this. McPherson, can you tell me if this observation comes from personal experience or from a source to which you can provide a link? I'd like to hear more.
Click to expand...

I personally own 2 Norinco M14s, and have friends with another 20 plus and to add to that number, a friend that is a gunsmith that has verified that with his own Nato NO GO gauge. I have reloaded both 30-06 and 308 from Garands and 308 from US M14's and M1A's and can tell you I have never had a fight with my reloading press like I did when trying to resize once fired brass out of my 2 M14s. A buddy who was watching me thought I was going to need a change of shorts after that fight with the press.

As a further note, in the near future, my gunsmith and I will be sitting down with a few Chinese M14s, a Nato NO GO gauge and Electrical Tape (Nominal of about 10 thousandths of an inch thick as I recall) and stacking Electrical tape on the gauge to see how far out it is. I can tell you that I have seen Lee Enfields that take a NO GO Gauge, but there is some hesitation on the bolt before it drops, like.... eh... do I really want to drop.... well.. ok. All the M14s I have checked, the bolt (through use of manual movement and no spring) just rolls right on over with no hint of the Gauge even touching the shoulders.

Can you get more reloads out of the brass than 2? Most likely yes. But my stand point on this is like that of reloading for the Lee Enfield. Case separations are a real pain and who really wants to deal with one? So, I play it safe. I want to know for sure that when I pull the trigger and the bolt locks back in to battery (or so I hope) that there isn't part of the last casing stuck in the chamber, especially if I am hunting!
 
I'll agree that some Norcs are way out of spec, and some aren't. Also, that a big chamber will not be kind to brass. My rifle has been tuned up by one of the pros here. Headspace is generous, but nowhere near dangerous. I have already loaded some winchester cases for it 3 times, no case head issues yet. Don't get me wrong, I will be careful. But I'm good to go until I see issues inside my brass.

Does anyone have some more load ideas for me? Thanks, and keep the advice coming guys!
 
mcpherson284 said:
First, the thing to remember about the Norinco M14's is that their chambers do not meet any military's standards, let alone civilian standards. New, out of the box, they will no only take, but swallow the Nato NO GO Gauge (meaning your chamber is so over sized that the barrel should be worn out now and thrown away). On top of that, the chambers are not perfectly round, so if you reuse once or twice fired brass, A. reloading the brass will be difficult due to your bass being stretched. B. Only use your brass twice then throw away.

Follow the rules set down by the Americans for the M14, as they have been playing with it since the late 50's.

http://www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html

Keep in mind, that a pie plate is more than good enough if you can reliably place rounds on it out to 300 yards.
Click to expand...

I don't agree with some of this either and I'm tired of guys who don't work on these rifles professionally giving bad or uneducated/inexperienced advice.
Most of the several hundred norinco m14 rifles I've stripped and measured chambers on, fall under 1.640" most measure in the 1.636 to 1.638" range..... and have been pretty damn consistant since 2009. previous to 2009 we saw varying values from 1.636" to 1.644"

if you send Hungry/tactical teacher brass to measure with his precision mic, you must shut the gas off on the rifle or the measurement will be totally incorrect. this is to ensure the case has finished expanding before you extract it. the precision mic is only a ballpark and is NOT a substitute for measuring the chamber with headspace gauges. BUT Hungry's method will tell you if you have a problem, that's for sure.

I'm no professional or experienced reloader but I do know that a .308 win case will hold a lot more powder than a nato case and it is not recommended to use Nato spec load data for reloading a .308 case.

most "gunsmiths" in this country know bugger all about these rifles (and simply don't want to work on them) and it may come as no surprise to many here that some of this country's top smiths send their m14 work to my bench.
if I start crying foul about a Chinese rifle issue...... best to listen up.
Chinese rifle headspace on average is right on par with what I would expect to see in a real deal m14 rifle.

there are some guys here who have done extensive reloading for their Chinese m14 rifles and hopefully they will chime in or send you a private message with some good info.
personally, with my little knowledge on reloading, I would think I<3 M14's advice is a pretty good starting point
 
Last edited:
As I said, my two M14s, plus well over 40 that I have personally put a Nato NO GO gauge into have swallowed the Nato NO GO Gauge. You can argue that all you like but that isn't going to change that fact. As for your comment of uneducated/inexperienced advice, I would be careful with throwing that one around. My gunsmith, American trained and has been working on Garands and M14s for over 30 years, another gunsmith of mine who was trained to work on AR-15/M-16, M-14/M1A and 1911's by an Ex Marine Corps Armorer with 35 plus years behind AR-15/M-16, M-14/M1A and 1911's, and a number of other Military armorers and such interesting people that have been playing with and running these guns for long than I have been around.

My comments were about the chamber, not about how good or bad these rifles shoot. I can personally vouch for these Chinese M14s shooting very well. The original sights leave some to be desired in that they aren't up to part with American/Italian machining, but if you set the Sights and leave them alone, they are perfect. It is only the mechanical part that is the issue. My two personal M305s had barrels that were under machined and left sitting towards the 1 o'clock position. in to the barrel vice, shave a bit off the shoulder, and they both are now centered with everything working smoother now. The Op Rod spring was changed to that of GI OpRod Spring, the bearing surfaces were polished the flash hiders were replaced with that of the correct GI Flash hider with bayonet lug, the ferrules were de-burred and polished to allow proper movement under recoil and allow everything to reset to the same point every time. I might even go as far as glass bedding a over sided Walnut M1A stock.

That all said, if you are who I think you are 45ACPKING, I have talk to you in person before about buying one of your worked over M14s.
 
mcpherson284 said:
As I said, my two M14s, plus well over 40 that I have personally put a Nato NO GO gauge into have swallowed the Nato NO GO Gauge. You can argue that all you like but that isn't going to change that fact. As for your comment of uneducated/inexperienced advice, I would be careful with throwing that one around. My gunsmith, American trained and has been working on Garands and M14s for over 30 years, another gunsmith of mine who was trained to work on AR-15/M-16, M-14/M1A and 1911's by an Ex Marine Corps Armorer with 35 plus years behind AR-15/M-16, M-14/M1A and 1911's, and a number of other Military armorers and such interesting people that have been playing with and running these guns for long than I have been around.

My comments were about the chamber, not about how good or bad these rifles shoot. I can personally vouch for these Chinese M14s shooting very well. The original sights leave some to be desired in that they aren't up to part with American/Italian machining, but if you set the Sights and leave them alone, they are perfect. It is only the mechanical part that is the issue. My two personal M305s had barrels that were under machined and left sitting towards the 1 o'clock position. in to the barrel vice, shave a bit off the shoulder, and they both are now centered with everything working smoother now. The Op Rod spring was changed to that of GI OpRod Spring, the bearing surfaces were polished the flash hiders were replaced with that of the correct GI Flash hider with bayonet lug, the ferrules were de-burred and polished to allow proper movement under recoil and allow everything to reset to the same point every time. I might even go as far as glass bedding a over sided Walnut M1A stock.

That all said, if you are who I think you are 45ACPKING, I have talk to you in person before about buying one of your worked over M14s.
Click to expand...

maybe we got different gauges :D
I have friends with credentials too.
and my comments weren't about how well these rifles shoot, not at all
I've worked on and handled a crap load of Chinese m14 rifles at clinics and professionally and seen very few (since 2009) that measure past 1.638"
I'll agree that previous to 2009, measurements were somewhat looser. perhaps your 40 inspections were on rifles of 2007 vintage and older.
As for your last comment, I don't do builds for very many folks these days but have built a lot of rifles for guys on this site and others. I'm certainly no ted brown, art luppino, ron smith, tim warbird ect ect but I'd let any one of them or all of them drop a pile of parts in my lap and judge the rifle I build out of them. that's good enough for me ;)
anyhow, my apologies if I singled you out but I'm the guy who gets the emails and pm's about headspace concerns everytime someone starts talking about their particular rifles swallowing no go gauges.
I'll agree that your link to zediker is good advice for anyone attempting to reload for these rifles
 
Last edited:
Thanks a bunch 45acp, glad you chimed in. I read that article by zediker, and will likely a few more times. Very cool stuff.

So to clarify thus far, I'm not going to wreck my rifle working with commercial load data in a commercial case?
 
When i tested my Socom, i tried 10 rounds of factory Nosler Accubond 165 gr ( very deadly bullet) and it was up there at 2.5 MOA /100 metres...

When i give the rifle to my inlaw, i will include 4 boxes of that Nosler Accubond ammo with it... This will be a great hunting rig... JP.
 
Jmiverson said:
Thanks a bunch 45acp, glad you chimed in. I read that article by zediker, and will likely a few more times. Very cool stuff.

So to clarify thus far, I'm not going to wreck my rifle working with commercial load data in a commercial case?
Click to expand...


The info I have been told religiously with Garand/M14, only run Ball spec ammo through (Ie. Chinese ball, American and other Nato Ball, American Eagle, PPU Priv. Partzn. or tailoredhandloads that are loaded with correct powders and correct bullet weights. And before anyone says anything on that one, I HAVE seen second hand what the incorrect ammo does in an M14. In One gun, the bolt gun handload that was put through the M14, Cracked locking lugs (yes, both lugs), flying/missing extractor, bent Op Rod, destroyed stock with 2 lengthwise cracks, blown Magazine. Yes the shooter was fine, but scared the crap out of him. If memory serves me, the handload was a 180 Gr. backed with IMR 4350. So, like the guide says, use only the powders suggested.
 
I must have a good Norenco M14. My fired cases, (Winchester, Remington brass) run 1.638. I resize to 1.636 as measured at the shoulder with a cartridge head space Gage. I have reloaded so far 6 times with no sign of incipient case head separation. I must be doing something wrong? Have not found a good load yet. I know that my Norenco is a shooter as I can hit a 10 inch gong off hand 6 or 7 times out of 10 with regular old ChiCom 7.62X51 ammo at 100 meters with a regulation leather military sling. Have tried IMR 4895 and 168gr Burger hybrid hunters while undertaking the Dan Newberry OCW load method. So far no cigar. Have replaced the op rod spring with a Sadlak and have replaced the gas piston with a Sadlak grooved piston. So far the rifle functions flawlessly with that piston no mater what ammunition I shoot in it or grain weight of bullet including 147gr ChiCom Nato 7.62X51. Have thought about turning of the gas and getting the rifle quiet for hunting. Will try that next.
 
Last edited:
Both my NM came with a certificate attesting the headspace, one is at 1.631 and the other at 1.632.... JP.
 
Solid copper bullet don't fly the same as lead cored bullet so you need Barnes data. However, you can use any Barnes bullet 165 grain data. Otherwise, it's no different than loading your 155's.
If you're going to use Barnes bullets, you'd be best to go buy one of their manuals. Or go to their site. They list 165 grain bullet data there. H4895 is very close but not the same as IMR4895 though. I'd be using IMR4064 myself. It gives more consistent accuracy than either 4895.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom