M14 vs. AR-15

You're right, accuracy is not so important.

Hitting the target with 100% of the shots you fire is more important than having the ability to hit it with all bulls or all v-bulls.

Matches are rarely lost on bulls vs inners, more often, it's the miss that causes the loss.

Note, in service rifle, all bullseyes are 3 MOA or greater. (exception being the 300m rapid, the fig 11 bull is only 8" wide, but it's still 16" tall.)

NS
 
Thanks for the replies.
In terms of just range plinking, which would be potentially more accurate: a done up AR or the M14's they're using as sniper rifles in various warzones?

-Rohann
 
Rohann said:
Thanks for the replies.
In terms of just range plinking, which would be potentially more accurate: a done up AR or the M14's they're using as sniper rifles in various warzones?

-Rohann
Click to expand...
I built an AR match rifle with Colt lower, stock trigger, SGW flat top upper and 24" match bbl.. aluminul tube fore-end. With my match handload it would stay under 1/2", using my 36X B&L target scope, with many under 1/4" spread. Not bad for a gas gun!
OPC X6
 
AR vs M14 for Service Rifle

Rohann:

I have shot service conditions matches (oh my god :rolleyes: ) since 1975 with an FNC1A1. Hey we even got gassed during a Match 12 in Wainwright, AB... right in the middle of a rundown.

I've competed with scoped and iron sighted M14's AND AR15's. All of my medals were won with the AR. I can't tell you why. Sometimes I got lucky with dialing the wind and staying ahead of the subtle wind changes. Sometimes I was well prepared by practicing my breathing and squeezing and sight picture by playing my kids' Nintendo N64 007 James Bond Goldeneye. I would play the "Library Stack" mission over and over again by hanging out at the end of the basement hallway while more and more soldiers/black outfit officials would continue to try and eliminate me. Sometimes the rain would dump in the middle of the rapid fire stage and I remind myself that I will not be rattled by the environment. My mantra recited would be, "I shoot better in the rain, I shoot better in the rain..." And most of the time, like my goaltending, I'm lucky NOT Good !

Remember that we are putting holes in paper and not delivering the "goods" to a hostile opponent. I don't know about you guys, but good ammo is not cheap and I ain't sponsored by the military any more. .223 ammo is so much cheaper to practice and compete with. That's why I like competing in Service Conds. matches with the .223.

I've competed for many, many years with the .308 in Service Conditions and that sure was fun, not necessarily better for different ambient conditions. Would I want to go back ? Not really since brass is not cheap to buy and then reload. At least with the .223 case, I find lots and lots of it on the ground at my home range as do many of us. There is no ample supply of .308 brass kicking around any more.

Now, I don't know about you, but back in 2000, 2001 etc. when I met NavyShooter at CFSAC, etc... I could not get over the level of support many units recieved. Ammo, rifles, food, coaching , organization.... wow. :cool: All I had was 3 of us: Me , myself and I. ;) I was my own ammo tech, my own armorer, and my own personal coach.

So with the ammo, .223 is cheaper, plentiful, and easy on the shoulder. With respect to the armorer and rifle problems... I had lots and lots of spare parts for my AR. You cannot step into a CFSAC type of competition unless you keep a spare bolt and bolt internals in your rucksack. I even keep spare barreled upper flat top reciever in my Jeep in order to anticipate any messups. The M305 is more difficult to support at this level (all by yourself)... And HEY, I'm the guy that fixes M14's like crazy and you don't see me competing with an M14 anymore. :D The last M1A I saw on the Connaught CFSAC firing line was in 2001 and that fella broke a (Geneseo, Illinois parts) firing pin. I had to rebuild, and then rebed his M1A in August of that year after the CFSAC matches. He rocked at 200 and 300 meters, only to break his firing pin on his first sighter for Match 9 - 500meter deliberate. :eek: Bastard hasn't paid me ever for the (USGI) parts that I put into his rifle, they came out of my own personal M14 backup inventory, which is even more scarce 5 years later. :confused:

So, should one compete with an M305 ? By all means go for it, especially if it gets you into the game. By all means come out to my matches.... June 17 - 18 in Connaught. Sadly, I can't expect too many there... just not a pattern I've witnessed over the past 5 years. Like Shelldrake said, they are not anywhere near the top of the Grand Aggregate, all the AR's are there (ELCAN mounted C7A1's, not the space guns often stereotyped).

The last M14 I've witnessed in an ORA Service Condtions match was ME back in May 2005. I was shooting with IRON sights, too ! :rolleyes: Since then, it's been all about the AR's and a single AR180 (my sniper partner from July 2005).

So, by all means come out and play. May as well. Remember that this match is not about the accuracy of the bangstick as many CGNutters will believe. These matches are all about physical fitness and intense training, nothing else... And that's why we love this game so much. :p

How often do I see all kinds of (rich and affluent) new ORA members with their free floated Armalites and M4 LEO Colts, etc show up to my matches only to shoot like shzt during the rundowns... and NEVER show up again...??

It's almost comical to recieve many PM's on this board asking if their Colts or their 16" Larue forestocked, ACOG TA31F sighted, Tango Down grip will do well with 69 gr. Federal match ammo . Then I'll meet them at my match and discover a few facts: They have not got a 100 m. / yd zero, they only brought ONE 5/30 rd magazine :D , and the most physical exercise they have done is run for popcorn in between periods of the Leafs (Habs, Oilers, Flames, Canucks) games. :rolleyes:

So Rohann, let's focus more on the training and preparation instead of the equipment. I'm hoping to see more of you M14 lovers on the line.... ;)

Cheers all,
Barney
 
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Thanks for the post! I appreciate it. Who gets to shoot C7's? If regular grunts get to use them then I'll probably have access to one next year, and then I won't have to borrow a rifle or anything. This definately sounds like it's more of a fitness thing, and the AR definately seems to be the way to go. I had an opportunity to buy a Valmet, and I thought it'd be interesting to have one of those out there, but they are just too scarce so it was too expensive.
I do quite a bit of exercise throughout the week, and practice positions and techniques when I get the time. Hopefully I'll be able to come out next year as I'm gone for the whole summer. Thanks again!

-Rohann
 
If the restricted thing is a problem for you how about going the AR180b route? I'm assuming without too much trouble you can set up an AR180b to be accurate enough for service rifle (ask armedsask he's the AR180 mods master around here).

Of course the AR180b might not be allowed depending on the rules in your province.
 
I'll echo some of Barney's info.

I cannot recall the last time I saw an M-14 type rifle on the line. I was going to shoot one for S&G in the 400 matches in Ottawa, but ended up firing a new C-7A1 that I had to re-zero. I still topped out the 400 mound for Reg Force competitors.

Anyhow, The AR is really the way to go. If a budget is your problem, then by all means, grab an M-305 and some ammo and get out shooting. If you can wait a bit, and can save the money, get an AR, flattop, with some kind of low magnification optic (3-4X) adjustable for both windage and elevation.

NS
 
Well, here's to reviving an old thread and I'll just add what I've witnessed over the years.

I've competed also with both, match grade with scopes or irons. The AR-15 with a scope is king in Canadian style SR matches! Period.

Why?

Lighter rifle especially for the rundown and being in physical shape. The ability to rest the 30/5 rd. magazine on the ground which supports the rifle very nicely in the prone position. Lighter recoil and quicker follow up in rapid fire stage.

There it is! The match is won by those three huge and I mean huge advantages over the M-14. That's why I won't even try to compete with an M-14 against those odds. You can argue all you want about accuracy, but none of that matters a whole lot.

Now that everyone has a competitive AR, the match is won at the rundown, especially the 500m to 100m!;)

Sadly, a newbie with his M-305 will be dissapointed. That's the hard part. There really should be two classes. AR and Norc M-14 classes.;) ;)

Who knows, maybe I'll bring it up when I see some action @ the OSA. See you there soon.:)
 
Well, as a rank beginner to shooting let alone competing, I decided that I could justify buying a Norc M14 but not a $1500 AR. I am going to get out to a match one of these days and compete just to get my feet wet -- I think it's gonna be a great discipline and a lot of fun.

If, for some reason, I decide that service rifle isn't for me then I still have a nice, non-restricted semi-auto that didn't cost me much money in the first place. On the other hand, if I take to it like a duck to water then I can always upgrade to a .223 AR once funds and skills allow.

If I get around to it, I'll document my learning / practice process and write up a step-by-step newb's guide to getting started. It's taken me a lot of reading of various threads to get an idea of the game and I'd bet some other newbie would appreciate a little hand-holding.
 
Shoot what ever you want. I started service comp with a #4mk1 and after a few matches I in the middle of the pack for scores with the AR crowd. Then I got an AR15 and increased my scores from there.
 
nest.gif


Longshot said:
First you need to pass BMQ Rohann.Then you'll be qualified to use a C7.
Click to expand...

POW...


AR15 hands down.
Barney, Ryan and the rest have it...
 
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