M1895 Lee Navy 6mm Could use some opinions
- Thread starter Raider556
- Start date
Neato! this appears to be serial 8475 so I believe it to be the first batch that was not on the Maine.
From Wikipedia:
First contract[edit]
The first naval contract for the M1895 was let to Winchester for 10,000 rifles in January 1896 (serials 1-9999).[
Anyone know what it is worth?
There was one on a U.S. auction site last year. Estimated value of one to 2 grand USD. Likely a lot high and very over estimated. Same site lists others at under a grand. Mind you, that doesn't mean it's worth that here.
The Maine is irrelevant. A full military Lee runs over 3 grand USD. In excellent condition, of course. Friggin' bayonet alone runs $375US. Box of issue ammo sold on Gunbroker last April for about $222US. Don't other looking for shooting ammo. There isn't any. Making cases from .220 Swift is an expensive option. Appears the only game is RCBS. Everything is special order and starts expensive and stay expensive. Forming die set runs $238.99US.
The Maine is irrelevant. A full military Lee runs over 3 grand USD. In excellent condition, of course. Friggin' bayonet alone runs $375US. Box of issue ammo sold on Gunbroker last April for about $222US. Don't other looking for shooting ammo. There isn't any. Making cases from .220 Swift is an expensive option. Appears the only game is RCBS. Everything is special order and starts expensive and stay expensive. Forming die set runs $238.99US.
Eaglelord17
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sault Ste. Marie
One key point is not to use 30-40 Krag brass to make 6mm Lee Navy brass, here is a link to what can happen if you do.
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=50866
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=50866
Actually at least one of the salvaged rifles had a serial number lower than this one. As far as a "Maine" rifle being irrelevant, it is about $1000 more relevant than an ordinary one --------
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Like you I have Winchester Lee Navy relic requiring restoration. Your rifle needs,ballpark- rear sight 200, front sight protector 100, handguard (repro) 125, front band 60, nose assy 100, forestock extended walnut piece 70, front swivel and perhaps a bunch of screws,buttplate, bolt parts and those weak springs in the t/charger mech. S&S firearms has most.
Probably 900 USD minimum plus a lot of fitting. Full military rifles go from $1500-$4000 USD. Maine rifles will be of interest to some collectors.
I also have an original, rare as American hen's teeth, 1895 Charger, with Pre 1935 6mm hunting rds. I've seen only 2 of these sell from $150-$225 US. Works fine too. Believe it or not. (See pic)
I think most first batch rifles saw, with US Marines, action at Phillipines, China Boxer or Span Am conflicts perhaps others.
Probably 900 USD minimum plus a lot of fitting. Full military rifles go from $1500-$4000 USD. Maine rifles will be of interest to some collectors.
I also have an original, rare as American hen's teeth, 1895 Charger, with Pre 1935 6mm hunting rds. I've seen only 2 of these sell from $150-$225 US. Works fine too. Believe it or not. (See pic)
I think most first batch rifles saw, with US Marines, action at Phillipines, China Boxer or Span Am conflicts perhaps others.
Unknown.
I had a Navy Lee 6mm minus the bolt, sported. Got 100 $ on a trade.
South of the line, you might have the buyer by the balls...here? No patriotic attachment, I'd say 350-400.
I saw a really nice sportered one at a gun show for 450 $...you know gun show prices are about 20-30% high compared to reality.
That's not what you wanted to read is it?
It'd be a C & R rifle in the US, look into selling it down there. Might be able to waltz down there, with minimal hassle ( C & R remember) and sneak back with a fistfull of US $$$
I had a Navy Lee 6mm minus the bolt, sported. Got 100 $ on a trade.
South of the line, you might have the buyer by the balls...here? No patriotic attachment, I'd say 350-400.
I saw a really nice sportered one at a gun show for 450 $...you know gun show prices are about 20-30% high compared to reality.
That's not what you wanted to read is it?
It'd be a C & R rifle in the US, look into selling it down there. Might be able to waltz down there, with minimal hassle ( C & R remember) and sneak back with a fistfull of US $$$
The Wizard
CGN Regular
- Location
- Colorado Springs, Colorado USA
You might want to see if you can get a copy of Eugene Myszkowski's book entitled The Winchester-Lee Rifle. Your serial number puts it in the first contract. The "-N.C.T.-" stands for Ensign (later Lt.) Nathan C. Twining who accepted the rifles for the Navy. Although your serial number falls within the range of those rifles salvaged from the USS Maine, Myszkowski states that "those salvaged from the USS Maine, all show the ravages of being submerged in Havana harbor.".
By all means a realistic appraisal from the crowd is what I'm really looking for.
There is no realistic appraisal from the crowd. I ventured 450 $ from a gun show, but that's not what you desired. Ask 5000 $ then.
They have a limited appeal to the US crowd, and very little here. I got excited when I acquired mine too; " Wow, what if we find the bolt!"
Then it would have been worth 200 $. Just too rare; maybe if it was original, but a sporter is a tough sell in 6mm Navy. I can PM the name of a fellow who shoots one in BC, typically he has a pelithera of mausers, might get a good trade on.
Or take it south, it's likely ' not a firearm' in the US. Be easy to take it down I'd think.
I've a Krag too, and Canadian values on it are wacked. Typically they ask 700-800 $ then 7-8 "BTT with price drop" later they are sold for 1/2 of the asking price or unsold.
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I have been doing the gun shows since 85. Tokguy and I have given good range of what it is required, actual cost of the parts, and sales witnessed in Canada and U.S. I believe your rifle will fetch $300-$400. If you part it out, I'd say $500 or so over a longer period of time.
Good luck.
The 6mm Lee Navy is a pretty good cartridge but it was way ahead of its time. Kind of like the Swede 6.5x55 was way ahead of its time. I'm not saying they weren't effective just that they were both limited by the powders available at the time. The early powders were quite fast for such small diameter bores and with the long bearing surfaces on the very long for caliber bullets barrels wore very quickly. Corrosive primers and powders that were almost as bad created some serious difficulties for their users.
The rifles are very strong and their unique lock up system is very fast/smooth as long as it's clean. The cases used to be relatively easy to come by but they were made of a very hard brass compound. To much tin or nickel in it???? Necks split easily and the cases needed to be annealed after every second shot. The very long necks on the case, just like the 30-40 were not just a hold over but necessary to hold the bullet straight and true under all conditions when the brass itself is taken into consideration.
The rifles are very well made and rival the finish on most sporters at the time or even now. Here in Canada that rifle doesn't appeal to many people. The "NEW" Mauser and Lee Enfield craze seems to overwhelm most collectors and shooters. Great milsurps like your Lee and other turn of the 20th century firearms are almost ignored. Rifles like Kropatscheks, 1871 Mausers, 30-40 Krags, Verguieros, Comblains, Martinis, etc are virtually ignored. The rifles are slathered in history and when loaded properly can be very accurate. The rifles listed all shot transition cartridges and most were originally loaded with black powder. Maybe this creates some of the confusion.
The 6mm Lee was never a black powder cartridge as far as I know but with good modern powders it is a very good cartridge.
In many ways it's to bad the 6mm Lee Navy wasn't produced in larger numbers as it would likely be very popular today. Performance is very close to the 6.5x55 Swede of the day. The rifles are easy to carry and balance well and are easily maintained. Most seem to have been sportered in a similar manner to the OPs.
Like many other rifles it was a good idea that just never gained popularity and went against the grain of popular opinion of the time.
Sadly about $400 is about maximum on the OPs rifle. Hopefully it isn't broken up for parts.
The rifles are very strong and their unique lock up system is very fast/smooth as long as it's clean. The cases used to be relatively easy to come by but they were made of a very hard brass compound. To much tin or nickel in it???? Necks split easily and the cases needed to be annealed after every second shot. The very long necks on the case, just like the 30-40 were not just a hold over but necessary to hold the bullet straight and true under all conditions when the brass itself is taken into consideration.
The rifles are very well made and rival the finish on most sporters at the time or even now. Here in Canada that rifle doesn't appeal to many people. The "NEW" Mauser and Lee Enfield craze seems to overwhelm most collectors and shooters. Great milsurps like your Lee and other turn of the 20th century firearms are almost ignored. Rifles like Kropatscheks, 1871 Mausers, 30-40 Krags, Verguieros, Comblains, Martinis, etc are virtually ignored. The rifles are slathered in history and when loaded properly can be very accurate. The rifles listed all shot transition cartridges and most were originally loaded with black powder. Maybe this creates some of the confusion.
The 6mm Lee was never a black powder cartridge as far as I know but with good modern powders it is a very good cartridge.
In many ways it's to bad the 6mm Lee Navy wasn't produced in larger numbers as it would likely be very popular today. Performance is very close to the 6.5x55 Swede of the day. The rifles are easy to carry and balance well and are easily maintained. Most seem to have been sportered in a similar manner to the OPs.
Like many other rifles it was a good idea that just never gained popularity and went against the grain of popular opinion of the time.
Sadly about $400 is about maximum on the OPs rifle. Hopefully it isn't broken up for parts.
I really appreciate all the information and insight as I knew nothing about the piece. You guys are such a wealth of knowledge on tap for these pieces of history.The Shotgun News Treasury, Volume 12. by Robert W. Hunnicutt, has an article on straight pulls rifles and one of the rifles in the article is the 6mm Lee Navy.
The volume is on the shelves in Vancouver.
Read more: http://www.shotgunnews.com/tag/treasury/#ixzz3dEzm3YWQ
The volume is on the shelves in Vancouver.
Read more: http://www.shotgunnews.com/tag/treasury/#ixzz3dEzm3YWQ
Good explanation of what happened to Mr. DeRuiter here: https://www.msgo.com/threads/a-firearm-accident-that-killed-a-friend.22036/
The only round I have. "W.R.A. Co. 6m/m U.S.N." has a steel coloured copper jacketed bullet which measures .243 dia. with a(n accurate) micrometer just past the case mouth.
The round projects .7695" past the case mouth and is about half a thou out of round, rotating the case and repeatedly measuring the diameter reveals this.
Personally I'd hang that rifle on the wall - or at least I would if our laws would allow that.
Fascinating piece of history, but the weak receiver ring and crystalline fractures in the photos of the two that have failed recently do not inspire confidence.
The only round I have. "W.R.A. Co. 6m/m U.S.N." has a steel coloured copper jacketed bullet which measures .243 dia. with a(n accurate) micrometer just past the case mouth.
The round projects .7695" past the case mouth and is about half a thou out of round, rotating the case and repeatedly measuring the diameter reveals this.
Personally I'd hang that rifle on the wall - or at least I would if our laws would allow that.
Fascinating piece of history, but the weak receiver ring and crystalline fractures in the photos of the two that have failed recently do not inspire confidence.
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