M1A1 carbine sold for $4,900 on Gunbroker Oct 16 2012-- What value in Canada?

[drm3m]

What would this gun be worth in Canada?
What kind of demand do you think there would be?

Sellers description;

Beautiful Condition Inland High Wood M1A1 S# 539718 dated 6-43. All correct Inland parts throughout, including all small parts. Near perfect with no arsenal rebuild marks, no import marks, no cracks, no repairs no stake marks. Stock is near blemish free, has not been sanded, has early deep grove matching hand guard. Metal has not a hint of rust or corrosion on original parkerize finish. Bore is excellent, bright shiny with tight muzzle. Folding stock works perfect, locks up strong in both positions, has nice original leather with correct brass rivets. Comes with khaki sling and IS oiler. Not much else to say about this beauty, I have posted over 40 pictures for your inspection, they show all the internal parts with the Inland markings. Take a few minutes and view all the pictures, I think they will tell you all you would want to know.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=310282784

David

 

[Claven2]

In Canada, under $2000 IMHO. It's restricted here so a lot less appeal.

 

[Avalonthas]

Depends how many serious collectors we have up this way, the price was jacked because you had competing collectors wanting it for there collection. Thus it fetches whatever it means to the new owner to have it as part of there collection. Due to the laws up here though i see it as taking half of the value it did in that auction

 

[gaff]

there are no more collectors in Canada . just old fellas with firearms. $1500-$1800 if you get lucky.

 

[contact148]

honestly id not pay more then 1500.00 canadian with a single OIC your guns have zero value in this country
plus as above its restricted which for most is a PITA

I have 2 m1a1s none that nice but i payed $400.00 for 1 (5 years ago) and got the other for free

and unless you can prove it was NOT lendlease importing it into the us might not be possible


DRM3M you do have some nice stuff but here in Canada you would be hard pressed to get even 1/2 of the us prices (which sucks for those of us with nice rare guns!)

really its worth what someone will pay you for it..........

 

[drm3m]

I guess that is one of the issues that remains a gray area in Canada regarding original M1A1 carbines- they are very difficult to find....these M1A1s are classic U.S. WWII guns.
(See below.)

Same thing for M97 Winchester trench guns.

No mystery to that... as there are not a lot of them available.
(They are not that easy to find in the U.S. and the prices reflect that.)

If a collector wants one for their collection, what do they do?

There is no doubt that the U.S. market is different than the Canadian market, but the supply and demand dynamic still applies....albeit at different levels.

I have been in contact with a number of people looking for original M97 trench guns in Canada.....go and find one.....same thing for original M1A1 carbines.

Much of my collection is U.S. Civil War based.
For collectors that want nice pieces ...you usually have to go to the U.S. to find nice stuff.

The difference is U.S. marked WWII pieces can not re-enter the U.S. market.....so we are stuck with the Canadian market reality......I guess?

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts.

David

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The reason that I was curious to follow this auction on Gunbroker was because of the M1A1 carbine that I own.

It is one of the early carbines dated 12-42 S#123829.

Ordnance crossed cannons escutcheon that is not always present on these M1A1 stocks.

The M1A1 was officially standardized in May 1942, and the first deliveries began in October 42.

There were two separate production runs of M1A1 carbines. The so-called 'First Contract' carbines were shipped between October 1942 and October 1943, with approximately 71,000 M1A1s delivered during the period. Serial numbers ranged approximately from 42,000 to 850,000.

The second production run was between about May and December 1944 and created less than 70,000 M1A1s. Serial numbers ranged approximately from 5,150,000 to 6,700,000.

Period photo of an M1A1 carbine in Italy with U.S troops.

Photo of M1A1 carbine jump scabbard.

 

[militariacollector]

For an all matching M1A1, I think the price would still be pretty significant though maybe not that high. I'd say there is more of a market and demand for M1A1s in the States, but to find one in it's issued condition is extremely had wherever you are. Marstar had an all original M1A1 (though with a 30 round magazine) that was brought into the country for military tests during the war. It sold and if I recall correctly, the asking price was $5,000. Was a very nice example with its history attached so I'm not sure how reflective that is of the current value in Canada.

 

[1fastjeep]

Gun broker auction is usually overpriced. if a gun is put up by a pawn shop, the reserve price is usually up to the roof.

 

[Steve1987]

The trend here seems to continue - Whenever the value is asked of a rare milsurp, it seems like everyone is fast to jump in with very low expectations.

I'd like to see ANY nice all original M1A1, M97 Trench Gun, or Colt M1911A1 that has lasted even one week on the EE recently no matter the asking price, the fact is these guns sell up here for good money and quickly. Not to mention we have many collectors with deeper pockets than brains, I have seen many guns sell as a "original" for top dollar within minutes despite obvious flaws. I'm sure we have all watched that happen many times. And when the good stuff comes along it's gone within minutes, usually comparable to what the same gun would sell for in the U.S. In the case of arsenal re-builds and shooter grade guns, they actually sell for more in Canada than the U.S.

If a true nice M1A1 like the one in gunbroker auction surfaces in Canada it will sell for WELL OVER $2000, I'm very sure of it. We have VERY FEW nice U.S. firearms up here, they are very difficult to find in high original collectible condition.

-Steve

 

[can14]

Canadian dealers got a lots of the US military small arms because the US dealer's were not allowed to import them. We got, Thompson's, Garands, M1 Carbines, Colt 45's, etc. Most of the guns were in great condition with parts and accessories. Prices were reasonable. But that was 30 years ago or more. All of these guns are still here somewhere.

 

[drm3m]

For what it is worth....I tripped over this M1A1 carbine that was sold on RIA in Feb 2011.

It is a post war re-build.

With all of the extra fees and taxes the $4,900 that was paid for a WWII M1A1 carbine in the condition that it was in seems like a decent deal IMHO (In the U.S.)

An RIA sale.
3,750.00 USD to floor+ (731.25) buyer's premium + taxes, fees, etc...
This item SOLD at 2011 Feb 19 @ 16:26UTC-6 : CST/MDT

Late WWII Inland M1A1 Carbine Paratrooper.

Manufacturer: Inland Model: M1 Carbine
Estimate: $2500 - 3750
Late manufacture with Inland/GM 7-44 dated Inland barrel with standard receiver markings, original bayonet lug, adjustable rear sight, canvas sling and paratrooper folding wire buttstock that has the correct cast in markings in the buttplate, with a Korean War era "SA" marked pistol grip, and arsenal replaced leather cheekpiece. The side of the stock has an unboxed "AAE" rebuild cartouche stamped on wood.
BBL: 18 inch round
Stock: walnut
Gauge: 30 Carbine
Finish: parkerized
Grips:
Serial Number: 5324982
Condition: Excellent 95%-98%


Canada is still asleep as far as I am concerned.
The best example is what we think original M1 Garands are worth. ($500-$1200 ?)
When is the last time you saw a decent original well marked correct (collector grade) Garand offered for sale?

There is lots of crud but not much nice stuff.
If someone wants a shooter...with no collector considerations ....then that is fine.

The nice guns may be sleeping in older collections ....but they don't surface very often.

David

NOTE;

I suspect that the auctions... be it Gunbroker or Rock Island Auctions with create a high level bench mark for values.

This info might be useful for collectors that find nice pieces from private sources and can recognize a good buying opportunity.

 

[machman]

I like to consider the relative value of the cars/bikes I grew up with compared to milsurp rifles...I grew up in an era that idolized late 60's, early 70's musclecars, and you know that they fetch very high prices now at auctions...but what about vintage & veteran cars? I personally wouldn't be interested in owning or restoring a Model T, etc, and the town I live in has a lot of (elderly) steam train fans...transportation from an era before my time, but it seems to me that in the not too distant future they all might be forgotten and/or consigned to be museum pieces. Will kids born in 2012 lust after old musclecars like I did? They'll probably think of them as ancient environmental disasters!
Point being, maybe by the time I'm an old man I'll be able to afford all the old milsurp rifles I've lusted after. The current crop of kids will all want M41A pulse rifles or some plastic/composite ####e instead. ;-)

 

[haha49]

Canadian dealers got a lots of the US military small arms because the US dealer's were not allowed to import them. We got, Thompson's, Garands, M1 Carbines, Colt 45's, etc. Most of the guns were in great condition with parts and accessories. Prices were reasonable. But that was 30 years ago or more. All of these guns are still here somewhere.

That and they still can't cross the border into the US so supply and demand comes into effect as well...

 

[contact148]

No but MANY many guns were stripped to bare recievers and all the parts except reciever were sent into the usa.....

I had a trench gun years ago that i got from an oldtimer who told me it was new when he got it well he used it alot and it was well worn when i bought it

also as far as importing if a canadian dealer found ww2 non prohib guns they COULD easily import them but the usa has several roadblocks IE you have to prove its not lendlease

 

[Nyles]

I have an original unrefurbished WW2 M1A1 which was a "found in the attic" sort of situation and I sure wouldn't let it go for less than $2000, though I likely wouldn't expect 5.

 

[Coyote Ugly]

RIA has sold lots of good items and lots of junk too. Like for example K98 snipers that are not correct in any way.
Same with Barrett-Jackson for cars. Some good, some bad.
Know what you're buying.
Rebodied cars. VIN swapping.
More Chinese aftermarket sheet metal on it than original US sheetmetal.
Watch for the '71 Hemi Cuda Convertible in January. Lots and lots of controversy on that one - there's the as presented on the auction website, and the truth on the car forums from people who know the history and build.
Things arn't always as they appear in an auction. Shill Bidders. Profits. Buyers Premiums. Hype. Setting Records for high price. Cheerleaders. Crooks.
The economy is soft right now and not getting better, might even get worse. Lots of collectables have take a hit.

 

[drm3m]

The article below dates back to 2008 when I bought my M1A1 carbine.
Before I committed myself to buy it I sent photos of the gun to Bruce Canfield, who was very helpful.
Based on his observations and comments, I took the plunge.

David

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This article dates back to 2008 on Bruce Canfields website. I always enjoy reading his articles on Canfield's Corner.

(His comments obviously apply to the US market.)

Yet Another Look at Prices.

We recently discussed how the upper-end of the value market for M1941 Johnson rifles was affected by the three examples that sold at auction for sums over, or almost, $9,000 each. In previous columns here, I stated that among the hottest martial collectibles today are Johnson rifles and M1A1 carbines. This recent auction validated my prediction about Johnson rifles. Recent listings on a dealer’s on-line catalog have echoed the same regarding M1A1 carbines.

Scott Duff recently advertised four original M1A1 carbines. All were genuine weapons in nice condition but none were anything exceptionally special (i.e., with an identified provenance or factory-new condition). One was a “first contract” example that sold for $4,295, two were “second contract” guns that sold for $3495 (each) and one was a post-WWII rebuild that sold for $2395. All four sold almost immediately upon being posted on his site. I have no doubt that the guns would have sold at auction for even more. Obviously, the fact that all the guns sold immediately indicates that there is a lot of pent-up demand for these weapons and the number of willing buyers greatly exceeds the number of available specimens.

What conclusions can we take from these recent sales regarding the current values of M1A1 carbines? As I said about the recent auction sales of three M1941 Johnson rifles, auction results do not necessarily mean that every comparable Johnson rifle is now worth in excess of $9000. I’m not so sure about the M1A1 carbines. I think a strong case can be made that comparable M1A1 carbines can be sold, without a great deal of trouble, for the sums realized on Scott’s website. It is entirely possible that such guns may bring even more. In the absence of an auction, how much more is speculative. I have seen a handful of M1A1 carbines offered on auction sites in recent days but all have had some “problems”, including one obvious fake stock. On the other hand, the M1A1 carbines recently sold on Duff’s website were genuine weapons and were priced accordingly. The fact that a number of potential buyers were a bit late calling and missed out on purchasing the weapons indicates that there are more people out there willing to pay such prices (and probably somewhat more) for M1A1 carbines.

When I predicted the continued rise in value for Johnson rifles and M1A1 carbines less than two years ago, I didn’t quite envision prices rising so much in so short a period. As I asked in a previous column here, “where is the top of the market”? Again, I can only speculate.

I do think that a genuine M1941 Johnson rifle in very nice condition will sell immediately at $5,000 today (in a proper sales venue) and, based on the Rock Island Auction results, an exceptionally nice specimen could possibly bring something close to $10,000 (even as I’m typing this amount, I find myself wincing)! An original “first contract” M1A1 carbine could, likewise, fetch $5,000 (and possibly a bit more), while a genuine “second contract” might bring close to that amount (perhaps a $1,000 or so less). A nice post-war rebuilt M1A1 could easily sell for $2,500 today and a bit more wouldn’t shock me. While such prices might seem incredible today, I predict they’ll be routine in another year or so. Who would have predicted two years ago that a standard M1941 Johnson rifle would sell for over $9,000 or a M1A1 carbine for over $4,000? I do not think that either the Rock Island Auction or Scott Duff’s website sales are extreme anomalies. I believe they are harbingers of not-too-distant prices for these weapons. I’m not talking about refinished, beat-up or “humped up” specimens but, rather, totally original weapons in premium collectible condition. Junk will always be junk and will be priced accordingly.

At the risk of repeating myself, all of this reminds me of one of my favorite sayings regarding quality U.S. military collectibles: “You can never pay too much, but you might pay too soon”! Today’s outrageous sum could well be tomorrow’s bargain.

 

[drm3m]

Bruce Canfield's prediction back in 2008 regarding the increasing value of M1A1 carbines seems to be coming true. (In the U.S.)

Bruce's comment in the post above dating back to 2008.

At the risk of repeating myself, all of this reminds me of one of my favorite sayings regarding quality U.S. military collectibles: “You can never pay too much, but you might pay too soon”! Today’s outrageous sum could well be tomorrow’s bargain.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Sold on Gunauction.com February 28 2010 by ‘jackthedog’. for $5,376.65
Barrel dated 12-42 S# 142975

http://www.gunauction.com/Search/DisplayItem.cfm?ItemNum=9586084

Guns for Sale - INLAND - M1A1 PARATROOPER -- M1 CARBINE...Rare HIGH WOOD...Original Early Gun!!

NOTE;
The seller provided 58 photos of his gun.

Seller’s description;

NO RESERVE!! If you've wanted an WWII M1A1 Paratrooper carbine that could have dropped behind enemy lines on D-Day during WWII, here it is! This is an original condition, early production, Inland M1A1. This carbine is in very good shape and retains all of the original early features including the very scarce "High Wood" folding stock, 2-position "Flip Sight", narrow barrel band, checkered safety, dog-leg hammer, etc. There are NO import markings. The original finish shows some thinning but the overall appearance is excellent. The stock is in very nice shape without cracks, chips or repairs. The casting number in the rear of the buttplate is hard to read due to the roughness of the casting...but is there! No aftermarket repro parts on this gun, guaranteed! The mechanics are in perfect working order and the bore is excellent...bright with strong rifling. Comes with a 15-round magazine, original sling, and a modified (shortened) M1 Carbine carry pouch. A great gun for the military collector!

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Early M1A1 carbine Sold at RIA in September 2012 for $6,325, barrel dated 6-42, S# 1388, including the well marked green canvas jump bag.
The original stock on this gun was replaced with the later production low wood version.
(RIA's estimated price: $2,750 - $4,500)

http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/56/lid/3602

RIA’s comments;

This is an example of an extremely early production Inland M1 carbine with Inland Division barrel dated "6-42", "N" blade front and "S" marked flip-up peep rear sights. Type I barrel band, flat bolt, button safety and "W-1" marked magazine catch. Mounted with a later production paratrooper stock with 2-rivet handguard, low wood forearm, encircled block "P" on the pistol grip and folding wire buttstock with leather cheekpiece and checkered steel buttplate with very faint markings. With a green canvas sling and "U.S." and "ALLTEX PRODUCTS INC./1943" marked green canvas jump bag.

Condition;
Excellent. The carbine retains 90% plus correct thinning original parkerized finish. The bolt retains 90% original blue. The wood is very fine with some scattered minor dents and scratches, heaviest on the handguard. The leather cheekpiece is very good. The sling and jump bag are also very good. Mechanically excellent.

David

If the M1A1 jump bag (shown below) sold on RIA is original ....it is worth a few bucks.

A period photo of an M1A1 canvas jump bag.

 

[Coyote Ugly]

honestly id not pay more then 1500.00 canadian with a single OIC your guns have zero value in this country
plus as above its restricted which for most is a PITA

I have 2 m1a1s none that nice but i payed $400.00 for 1 (5 years ago) and got the other for free

and unless you can prove it was NOT lendlease importing it into the us might not be possible


DRM3M you do have some nice stuff but here in Canada you would be hard pressed to get even 1/2 of the us prices (which sucks for those of us with nice rare guns!)

really its worth what someone will pay you for it..........

Exactly. Another good example is 12.2 and Class 3 in the States.

A Class 3 MP40 down there sells for $23,000.00 USD.

Up here, a 12.2 Full Auto, there's one on the EE for $3000.00...then $2500.00....then $2000.00. He can't give it away.

Might be worth more as a Dewat up here.

There really is a difference in prices as you cross the border.

Also, what if Paul Martin (Lie-berals) had won the election when Harper got his minority government? Martin said he was going to ban handguns. It's easy to forget, but lots of collectors were sh/tting bricks then. Being an M1A1 is restricted just like a Luger (restricted or prohibited 12.6) or a 1911, then what would have happened to these sky rocketing predictions for prices, especially in Canada? A big tumble or more dewats? Something to think about.

 

[drm3m]

RIA M1A1 carbine sold $8,050 December 2011
S # 919463 –barrel dated 9-43

http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/54/lid/3674

This is the highest price that I have seen so far.

DESCRIPTION
Blade front and "wSi" 2-leaf flip rear sight, with "9-43" dated Inland barrel, "UI" Type I barrel band, flat bolt, milled guard, button safety and "EI" magazine catch. Magazine is blue, with "A.I." stamp on the rear. High wood stock, with 2-rivet handguard, "P" on the rear over the pistol grip, leather cheekpiece, oiler, tan canvas sling and wire buttstock with proper style mold numbers on the folding buttplate.
CONDITION
Virtually unissued, totally original WWII configuration with 99% plus of the original parkerized finish, showing a few light handling marks overall and a small amount of spotting on the wire. The stock is excellent, with some dents and light scratches. Minor fraying is visible on the sling around the front swivel. Mechanically excellent. Could not be improved upon!
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Trying to guess what a nice original M1A1 carbine would be worth in Canada is a theoretical exercise at best, as they just don’t turn up often enough to see how the market would respond.
The restricted classification in Canada does not help.

As far as the full auto MP40 on EE is concerned, it is highly likely that if it was an ‘old spec’ deactivation, it would have sold a long time ago, for higher numbers than it will sell for as a FA.
For $150 it can be welded up tight which I doubt the owner would like to do.

Call it preserving the history of probably the most successful smg of WWII in its original configuration…..I suspect that plays a role in his thinking.

I suppose Collectors Source knows what the value is of this MP40.
I don’t know what their experience has been selling FA 12(2) or CA 12(3) machine guns.

I looked at the Collectors Source web site today and noticed that they are offering a deactivated MP44
for $4,995.
I have felt for a number of years that this is the direction that we are headed in...much like the U.K.
Once you can't shoot them like they can in certain parts of the U.S. then they become display pieces and can be a nice complement to a collection.

The licensed collectors for full autos in Canada are getting older thus reducing the audience for these guns.
The U.S. market is a totally different place when it comes to the values of many different types of collectable firearms.
I think that is perhaps an advantage for Canadian collectors on the ‘buy side’.

I own four 12(3) s and I don’t look forward to the day that I have to sell them…. or decide to have them deactivated under the current deactivation requirements.

David

I suspect I will have the same issue when it comes time to sell this 12(3).

I think it will be a totally different situation with the 'old spec' deactivation of the MG42 shown below.

One of the MP44s shown below is a '#### and click' dewat...the other is a 12(3) CA.
I think I know where there will be more buyer interest....some day.

Where does a dewat smg fit in.
A nice dewat M1928A1 Thompson smg being a complement to other pieces in a U.S. WWII collection.