M305 accuracy

Charlemagne70 said:
I'm suprised with the accuracy of my 2007 Norinco! I managed 15/16'' 3 shot groups at 100 yd on a bench with M1A front and rear sight. Using commercial Hornady custom Interlock 165gr BTSP.

I was trying to decide what gun to bring to go to Anticosti Island next fall between my scoped PH 1200C bolt gun and my almost stock Norinco. The Norinco won the contest hands down. I know this is not normal (I have yet to find out what the problem is with the PH, I couldn't manage anything better than 2.5'' groups) but I guess I have to scope up the M-14S and bring her along!
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There may be nothing at all wrong with your PH. 2.5 MOA is very respectable hunting rifle accuracy. I had a few 1200's, one in '06, one in 7 MM Mag, and one in .308. They were not superbly accurate, and IIRC, the triggers on them were not the best, but any rifle that CONSISTENLTY groups 2.5 will kill anything very dead, except for very long range gophers and such. Also, keep in mind that many of the .000031 inch groups you read about on CGN are either one-shot groups or one-of's.:)
 
Papaclaude said:
There may be nothing at all wrong with your PH. 2.5 MOA is very respectable hunting rifle accuracy. I had a few 1200's, one in '06, one in 7 MM Mag, and one in .308. They were not superbly accurate, and IIRC, the triggers on them were not the best, but any rifle that CONSISTENLTY groups 2.5 will kill anything very dead, except for very long range gophers and such. Also, keep in mind that many of the .000031 inch groups you read about on CGN are either one-shot groups or one-of's.:)
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I shot two .9375'' 3 shot groups with a 15 min interval between them.

The PH used to be more accurate (1.5 MOA IIRC) but I tried to float the barrel and it went south from there.

Nevertheless, I never got sub MOA groups with my scoped up bolt gun (altough I never tried the Hornady ammunition in it) but I did it with the peep sighted M-14S!
 
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Great shooting! My stock rifle shot about the same. I can now shoot 2" groups with commercial ammo most of the time after working on the trigger (take the trigger group out and manually work it while watching a Habs game to smooth out the action) and also putting in a "Match" front blade. Have fun!
 
My two cents folks...

I'm pretty pleased with my inexpensive rifle. Last week I, VERY CAREFULLY, tweaked the hammer spurs to lighten up the trigger (be very careful, I believe I'm close to a situation where, in time with use, with wear, I might experience a shot when releasing the trigger...!!!), and yesterday I made a 2" or so group (@100 yds) with the gruesome Norinco sights. (damn, I need to file that front sight a bit narrower!) Heck, it was just above centre of where I'd even been aiming. I reload for this rifle, btw.

Personal opinion; without throwing a pile of ca$h at these rifles, you ain't gonna get an M21 rifle, but for the 400$, you could do worse. Keep it clean and lubed, reload for the bugger and put in the trigger time, see below.

Rant, off.

:dancingbanana:
 
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Kayser Sose said:
My two cents folks...

I'm pretty pleased with my inexpensive rifle. Last week I, VERY CAREFULLY, tweaked the hammer spurs to lighten up the trigger (be very careful, I believe I'm close to a situation where, in time with use, with wear, I might experience a shot when releasing the trigger...!!!), and yesterday I made a 2" or so group (@100 yds) with the gruesome Norinco sights. (damn, I need to file that front sight a bit narrower!) Heck, it was just above centre of where I'd even been aiming. I reload for this rifle, btw.

Personal opinion; without throwing a pile of ca$h at these rifles, you ain't gonna get an M21 rifle, but for the 400$, you could do worse. Keep it clean and lubed, reload for the bugger and put in the trigger time, see below.

Rant, off.

:dancingbanana:
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:agree:
Except for the common miss conseption that military acceptance for this rifle platform is 1 moa or less. Actually I do believe that it is 4 moa or under. Unless you are reffering to another varrient of this rifle platform eg. M25, Crazy Horse and other such rifles. But as you have show us...
By just doing some simple mods and reloading with proper scoping these inexpensive semi-auto rifles are more accurate than most people can shoot.
 
Kayser Sose said:
My two cents folks...

I'm pretty pleased with my inexpensive rifle. Last week I, VERY CAREFULLY, tweaked the hammer spurs to lighten up the trigger (be very careful, I believe I'm close to a situation where, in time with use, with wear, I might experience a shot when releasing the trigger...!!!), and yesterday I made a 2" or so group (@100 yds) with the gruesome Norinco sights. (damn, I need to file that front sight a bit narrower!) Heck, it was just above centre of where I'd even been aiming. I reload for this rifle, btw.

Personal opinion; without throwing a pile of ca$h at these rifles, you ain't gonna get an M21 rifle, but for the 400$, you could do worse. Keep it clean and lubed, reload for the bugger and put in the trigger time, see below.

Rant, off.

:dancingbanana:
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If you can get 2" with the irons and an basically un modified Rifle, you are doing excellent. I've been trying to tighten up with my groupings with a stock nork, but with NATO spec ammo, the best I got Sunday at a B-27 target at 100 was a 10 shot group measuring rectangular 3.5"X 4". It was very hot and i don't see that well any more but, the rest of the follow through was probaly good. I could see a 10X 3200 tightening those up to maybe 2-2.5 inches , buts thats about it with those pesky 147FMJs.

When I set my press gear up again, I'll start with that 168 Sierra MK and 4895 and start tuning up from there.
 
Satain said:
:agree:
Except for the common miss conseption that military acceptance for this rifle platform is 1 moa or less. Actually I do believe that it is 4 moa or under. Unless you are reffering to another varrient of this rifle platform eg. M25, Crazy Horse and other such rifles. But as you have show us...
By just doing some simple mods and reloading with proper scoping these inexpensive semi-auto rifles are more accurate than most people can shoot.
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The accuracy acceptance is supposed to be 5 moa or less at 100m for a rack grade M14. I had problem with rear sight on my new M305 from Marstar, they send me a replacement sight, worked ok but this week, i just get a mint beretta Garand sight from italy, installed on the M305 and now the rear sight is perfect, chinese cant match yet the quality of an italian sight or U.S one. Finally i will be ready for range time, well soon as i will get some free time...
Jocelyn
 
Yup, I'm pretty stoked!; best group so far out of this rifle, lightening up the trigger might have helped some. And I'd freshly cleaned the gun...

As well, being frugal and crafty, I JB-Welded a washer onto the rear sight, as the peep was off-centre, and that was bugging the pis$ out of me, trying to center the blade in the lopsided ghost ring of a rear sight. Found a well sized washer, and glued it on, centering the peep. Touch of sight-black, good-to-go.

These rifles are fine for $400; just keep the expectations in line... unless you're keen to spend money on parts instead of ammo... lol
 
Kayser Sose said:
Yup, I'm pretty stoked!; best group so far out of this rifle, lightening up the trigger might have helped some. And I'd freshly cleaned the gun...

As well, being frugal and crafty, I JB-Welded a washer onto the rear sight, as the peep was off-centre, and that was bugging the pis$ out of me, trying to center the blade in the lopsided ghost ring of a rear sight. Found a well sized washer, and glued it on, centering the peep. Touch of sight-black, good-to-go.

These rifles are fine for $400; just keep the expectations in line... unless you're keen to spend money on parts instead of ammo... lol
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I bought a new USGI Garand sight mainly to take care of the same issue. I see there a USGI apertures avaliable on the EE and online for 15-25 dollars. If the Chinese sight works well, other than the poor guy at the drill press didn't see his vise grips coming lose on the press vise and he drilled 2 million off center holes, then a new aperture should fix the annoying sight picture.
 
My better groups with a 2009 Norc are ~ 5" for 10 shots off a bench with stock irons and commercial ammo at 100m. Rapid fire with the trigger pulled as soon as the sight picture is back in alignment. Stock rifle and sights with the exception of M14Doc's OpRod Spring Guide (which made almost no difference to my group sizes). Not great, but plenty accurate for a battle rifle.

Edit: Forgot to mention that at 400m with stock irons it keeps all 10 shots on a 8.5x11" piece of paper provided I dial in wind corrections correctly.
 
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mine has been around 1 inch at 100. my brothers is even better. Have only been shooting light stuff (mil surplus, fed, win) all have been grouping well. When first got it cleaned it really well, sanded down any spots on the stock that rubbed slide. Very happy with the norinco 305 m-14
 
ShooterPHD said:
I've owned several Norc. M14's. It might be blind luck or tremendous skill, but they all shot under an inch @ 100yrds. I do use an optic (Leupold MK4 6.5-20 TMR) and the trigger does take some getting used to. I've also always swaped out the factory Norc. stocks for Springfield ones.
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Or an overactive imagination. Skill won't tighten a group beyond the rifles potential. Does anyone here really believe that a $400 semi auto rifle built in China by peasants with third class equipment will out perform bolt action rifles built by all of the worlds major manufacturers? You only have to look at other threads here to see just how inconsistent they are.

The hype surrounding the Norinco M14 is so great that people actually believe that you can put surplus ammo capable of 2" at best in one and get 3/4" groups. Come on guys. If your box stock Norinco or M1A standard shoots 1" it is a fluke that it came off the line so properly fitted. You are very lucky, one in 10,000. Especially considering that USGI rifles made to the highest standards could never do this.

I think the guys that chime in and say they are getting 2-5" groups are telling it like it is. Before everyone starts posting pictures of their cloverleafs lets all keep in mind that there is no way to verify the distance your target was shot at unless the distance was measured and a Notary signs off they were present.

Before I get crapped on for saying so keep in mind I agree they are a good buy. I think Hungry's clinic should come with your purchase, and those who specialize in this rifle can build you a pretty first class set up. If they were all shooting sub MOA out of the box who'd need the Dr or Hungry?
 
Seafury said:
Or an overactive imagination. Skill won't tighten a group beyond the rifles potential. Does anyone here really believe that a $400 semi auto rifle built in China by peasants with third class equipment will out perform bolt action rifles built by all of the worlds major manufacturers? You only have to look at other threads here to see just how inconsistent they are.

The hype surrounding the Norinco M14 is so great that people actually believe that you can put surplus ammo capable of 2" at best in one and get 3/4" groups. Come on guys. If your box stock Norinco or M1A standard shoots 1" it is a fluke that it came off the line so properly fitted. You are very lucky, one in 10,000. Especially considering that USGI rifles made to the highest standards could never do this.

I think the guys that chime in and say they are getting 2-5" groups are telling it like it is. Before everyone starts posting pictures of their cloverleafs lets all keep in mind that there is no way to verify the distance your target was shot at unless the distance was measured and a Notary signs off they were present.

Before I get crapped on for saying so keep in mind I agree they are a good buy. I think Hungry's clinic should come with your purchase, and those who specialize in this rifle can build you a pretty first class set up. If they were all shooting sub MOA out of the box who'd need the Dr or Hungry?
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I tend to agree. Most Norcs I have shot/ seen being shot struggle to get better than 2" with protracted 3 shot groups that seem to be in fashion these days. I guess most chaps here are crack shots!

On a side note, I don't believe a 3 shot group (with shots spaced over a few mins) really give a true indication of the rifle's performance characteristics. It is really more a test of the shooter's consistency in aiming more than anything as the rifle has completely been allowed to return to "steady" state and hence any factors that may influence followup shots are automatically excluded. Also, I don't believe flyers are one offs and hence always include them in my calculations, as they are important to forming a complete picture of the rifle's consistent targeting capabilities and help in diagnosing any surprises that may be in store.
 
I have since bought a basic Savage 116 in 30-06 that put 3 rnd groups in 2", 2 3/8",2 3/8", @200 yds under the same shooting conditions as the Norc, but with $90 optic. I think until there is money to burn I'll leave the Norc stock.
 
Seafury nailed it
And I also don't give any merit to 3 shot groups. Show me 5, 10 shot targets from one rifle with the same ammo/conditions. This will tell us what we need to see to determine repeatable consistancy in any given rifle.
Under 3" at 100 with dependable consistancy without match tuning and without a barrel upgrade is respectable from a rack grade m14 type rifle of any manufacture.
Hungry and I agree, if you want an affordable, no messing around sub 1" rifle, at 100, get yerself a bolt gun
 
M14Doctor said:
Show me 5, 10 shot targets from one rifle with the same ammo/conditions. This will tell us what we need to see to determine repeatable consistancy in any given rifle.
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At least a couple high round count groups for sure. Especially from a semi auto with all sorts of parts flying around.

This thread just nails it IMO:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/279218_The_Trouble_With_3_Shot_Groups.html&page=1
 
Just got back from the range a couple of minutes ago. Lovely evening, sun setting in my back giving me a sight picture over those irons my old eyes haven't seen in years, incredible actually.
Anyhow, just me and the wife there. No stress, shooting controlled pairs(lol pistol lingo), as groups, so as to lower my front sight height, to get an 8 click up from bottom zero at 100yds.

Heres how it went.
First 2 shots, 1" group dead center, 10" low. File away. Shoot again 9" low 2 shots 1" apart. Wow , maybe this puppy can shoot if I can really see the sights. I continue this process for around 20 rounds,..... till the group is point of aim at 100yds. The last 2 were around 1" apart. Whooppppeee.:D
Now for that fresh B-27M sitting beside it, to fire the remaining 7 rounds left in my 50 round case, and see that 1.5" group I know this baby can shoot.
Oh wait a minute, FFS my gas plug is loose. Hmmmmm.., is this why its shooting nice pairs. Tighten the puppy up, on the rest, squeeze of 7 in a row as fast as proper sight picture and squeeze will allow, and presto, that 3.75"X4 "group I have always been getting.:(

And of course I lost 3MOA in elevation by retightening the plug which makes sense.
It was too dark to continue, but I'll continue my sight grind down one evening this week, to get back the 3minutes I lost to the tightened plug.

After all this, two questions, till I can verify on the range again later,(1) does anyone experience these rifles shooting the first 2 rounds very tightly and then widening immensely from there in a 5 or 10 round group like any lightweight sporter barrel may do, and(2) the loose gas plug should in no way let it group better ,....right????
I was shooting 150Lapua FMJ @ 2750.

Anyhow just a couple of silly, but controlled observations this evening.:cheers:
 
If movement of the plug caused a change, this has everything to do with dwell time with the piston. What happened is the loose plug was letting the piston move very slightly but farther in during the cycle.
Dwell time, one of the final adjustments in accurizing and it will remain a mystery to most as it's way too in depth to discuss here. It's not something that can be messed with without the knowledge and tooling.
 
Interesting Doc.

I'll do the 2 round groups to get my zero next time out and see if the tightened plug allows each pair so close, for 10 consecutive groups. Kinda reminded me of shooting a BLR81 in .308Win, first 2 always tight, and then look out on 3...4...5 etc. One thing I didn't mention was the fact I didn't have a spotting scope and walked up 100yds after filing and firing each pair ,so it could take 5 minutes between pairs, so barrel was not warm at anytime. Thanks.:cheers:
 
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