M305: buying new, or used?

multicam333

multicam333

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Hey there

I should be getting my PAL soon but it's been months since my mind has been made up on what I would purchase as my first rifle. Thing is, I can't decide if I'll be buying new or used...

Something I have to mention is that will not be kept stock. It will go in a Sage stock and at strict minimum will have it op rod spring and spring guide replaced by NM-grade ones.

The thing with new M305s, as per what I read alas, is that because there are so many inconsistencies in QC, you never know what you're gonna get. Of course I would buy from a reputable dealer and thus I would have some form of warranty. But still, taking time to remove cosmoline & etc, then find out there's something wrong, having to return it, get another one, clean & grease again...I dunno. It "scares" me so much that if take the "buying new" road, I would most definitely buy local. Also if the barrel would be over-indexed they could tell me on the spot and I could exchange is immediately.

With used M305s, it seems like a whole other story. I've been taking a look at the EE quite frequently and I have to say there are quite a few fore sale out there, most of them having a few USGI/aftermarket parts already installed. I wouldn't be looking for a rifle with a ton of mods already made, just one with practical stuff. For example, I'm not so sure I would be able to take off/unweld the stock flash hider myself (needs to be taken off so I can install the Sage stock), so as soon as I find a rifle with an aftermarket flash hider I tag the post. Because in the end not only do I get a better flash hider, I also save on gunsmithing fees to remove the stock one! Another great thing is that owner knows his rifle (remember that thing about QC a few lines ago?). If he says/can prove that his almost-stock gun groups at 1-2 MOA, he definitely has my interest.

So, what do you guys think? And what about round count in used M305? Is 500 rds down the pipe fair, for how many rounds is a stock Norinco barrel rated?
 
I think if you go for a used norinco, buy from someone who has a high feedback rating.

A 308win barrels, have some of the greatest barrel life of any caliber, form what I've researched. Generally barrel is defined to be when accuracy drops off to an unacceptable level. this changes depending on your standards. If you a precisions shooter, anything greater than 1/2 moa might not be considered acceptable. In contrast, a service rifle that shoots 3 moa is perfectly acceptable. Again, from what I've researched, a 308 win barrel will retain a match grade accuracy for several thousand rounds. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If your hoping for your rifle to shoot 1-2 moa, your barrel life is probably going to 10,000+ before it's accuracy degrades past 2 moa. So when it comes to buying a used rilfe, anything less than 1000 rounds, and I think you'd be pretty good. However, the more rounds down the pipe, the more you should haggle. :)

I also think it's unrealistic for a stock m305 or even a stock grade springfield M1A to shoot 1-2mao. M14's generally would shoot about 3 moa. To get them down to to 1-2, your going to have to do some NM modifications. At worst case, you might need to change the barrel to a match grade quality.

How set are you on the that sage stock? Perhaps you should forgo it and buy a NM M14 type rifle instead.
 
I would buy new unless I knew the person and the gun.

Too many lemons out there to take a chance.....mind you even by buying new you take a chance....but at least you have somewhat of a warranty and the knowledge that no one made things worse by trying to "fix it"

You should easily be able to put 5-6000 rounds down the barrel
 
If you can handle a new one in person then no reason not to buy new and have the warranty. I have both a full length and an 18.5" that I bought from Marstar and Canadammo respectively. I worked on both at one of the clinics that get put on every so often. If one happens in your area do yourself a favor and GO!

The mods done to both rifles involved replacing the flat op rod spring guides, aligning and securing the op rod guides, hammering off the flash supressors, unitizing the front band/gas assembly and confirming barrel index and headspace. Having a few pros around and a bunch of other 'nutters definately helped to get it all done. I now have two sweet shooting and dependable rifles. I have some Italian rear sights I need to swap in but I consider them done in terms of basic, practical improvements.

If you can buy one with the mods done from a person you trust it might be better than buying new and doing it all yourself. I liked learning about my guns and getting hands on with them.
 
Gobc said:
I think if you go for a used norinco, buy from someone who has a high feedback rating.

A 308win barrels, have some of the greatest barrel life of any caliber, form what I've researched. Generally barrel is defined to be when accuracy drops off to an unacceptable level. this changes depending on your standards. If you a precisions shooter, anything greater than 1/2 moa might not be considered acceptable. In contrast, a service rifle that shoots 3 moa is perfectly acceptable. Again, from what I've researched, a 308 win barrel will retain a match grade accuracy for several thousand rounds. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If your hoping for your rifle to shoot 1-2 moa, your barrel life is probably going to 10,000+ before it's accuracy degrades past 2 moa. So when it comes to buying a used rilfe, anything less than 1000 rounds, and I think you'd be pretty good. However, the more rounds down the pipe, the more you should haggle. :)

Good!

I also think it's unrealistic for a stock m305 or even a stock grade springfield M1A to shoot 1-2mao. M14's generally would shoot about 3 moa. To get them down to to 1-2, your going to have to do some NM modifications. At worst case, you might need to change the barrel to a match grade quality.

That, I know. But some I did see some members with good feedback claiming those figures. I guess the rifle was good to start with, and with a few part swaps, it just became really good. As for a match grade barrel, time will surely come...!

How set are you on the that sage stock? Perhaps you should forgo it and buy a NM M14 type rifle instead.

Pretty set. I want to build myself an CQB-capable DMR in fact; as far as ergos go (and there's also the "tacticool" factor, I have to confess), this is the stock I'm choosing after hours and hours of reading. Read about Troy and Blackfeather too, of course.

Without saying that I'm gonna swap everything, I do start with the mentality that the M305 (its receiver in fact) is a good "base" to build on. So if sh*t hits the fan with any of the parts along the way, I'll be replacing with USGI. Going with a SA M1A + Sage EBR stock at once is a "bit" too much for my buget.
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klaus enuff said:
If you can handle a new one in person then no reason not to buy new and have the warranty. I have both a full length and an 18.5" that I bought from Marstar and Canadammo respectively. I worked on both at one of the clinics that get put on every so often. If one happens in your area do yourself a favor and GO!

CRAFM in Montreal QC has them in stock and on demo. Was supposed to go there today after work but got stuck in a traffic jam...what a bummer, and they close at 4:30PM during summer...
As far as clinics go, there are none in Quebec as far as I know...

The mods done to both rifles involved replacing the flat op rod spring guides, aligning and securing the op rod guides, hammering off the flash supressors, unitizing the front band/gas assembly and confirming barrel index and headspace. Having a few pros around and a bunch of other 'nutters definately helped to get it all done. I now have two sweet shooting and dependable rifles. I have some Italian rear sights I need to swap in but I consider them done in terms of basic, practical improvements.

If you can buy one with the mods done from a person you trust it might be better than buying new and doing it all yourself. I liked learning about my guns and getting hands on with them.
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Mostly, I'm interested in the used market because people are selling their rifles at a loss, big time. I.e. you can sometimes get a rifle that's worth 1300$ with aftermarket parts and gunsmithing hours for about 700-800$...!
 
Got mine used supposedly never fired for $400 shipped. Worked fine. There are lots on EE . Don't seem to be selling unless there are less than the purchased price. People don't seem to care about all the add ons or improvements Pretty hard to justify a $400 rifle and then someone adds a $1000 stock and thousands in upgrades like scope and scope mounts and USGI parts. Why wouldn't you just get an M1A. People want the M305 because it's $400 and you can spend the rest on ammo.
 
Komodo said:
Got mine used supposedly never fired for $400 shipped. Worked fine. There are lots on EE . Don't seem to be selling unless there are less than the purchased price. People don't seem to care about all the add ons or improvements Pretty hard to justify a $400 rifle and then someone adds a $1000 stock and thousands in upgrades like scope and scope mounts and USGI parts. Why wouldn't you just get an M1A. People want the M305 because it's $400 and you can spend the rest on ammo.
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As I mentionned, you have to see the M305 as a good forged receiver you can improve on. The rifle as a whole, is not that outstanding. However, quite a few people on these boards are building M305s with this mentality, on the premise that QC on SA M1As nowadays is not so spectacular...My 2 cents.
 
They are not a $400 rifle any more. Those days are gone. Your very best bet is buying in person. They are oiled not greased so initial cleaning is easy. I'm talking about the factory preservative to be clear. Your next best bet is to buy from someone with a good trader rating. Ask lots of questions. I never found a deal on one on the EE. When asking about the usual QC issues I always got dodgy, avoidant answers or just plain ignorance of Norc QC issues. "I dunno much 'bout these, it seems all good". So I have never bought one off a CGN member. That doesn't mean an honest, knowledgeable member doesn't have one for sale for a reasonable price, I just never found one.
 
supernova said:
They are not a $400 rifle any more. Those days are gone. Your very best bet is buying in person. They are oiled not greased so initial cleaning is easy. I'm talking about the factory preservative to be clear. Your next best bet is to buy from someone with a good trader rating. Ask lots of questions. I never found a deal on one on the EE. When asking about the usual QC issues I always got dodgy, avoidant answers or just plain ignorance of Norc QC issues. "I dunno much 'bout these, it seems all good". So I have never bought one off a CGN member. That doesn't mean an honest, knowledgeable member doesn't have one for sale for a reasonable price, I just never found one.
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You sir, are giving me the type of answer I wanna hear. Kudos for that!!!

If I would be buying off the EE, of course I'm gonna ask questions which target (pun intended) the Norc's usual QC issues (questions will vary on build year also, don't wanna end up with an older build that has those soft bolts). I posted a link to the EE a couple of posts ago, the guy brought his rifle to one of Tactical Teacher's clinics and has 37 feedbacks (quite fair), scoring 97% (one oddball negative from a fussy buyer it seems). This, to me, is a good start. The rest depends on how well he would score on the questions...!

If buying new, my local store has them for 518.95$ + tax. Quite fair, in fact it comes up to the same price as if I were to buy online (one less tax but shipping to pay). As for removing cosmoline, I don't really know how to go about that, but I'm pretty sure the people there would be able to help me.
 
You're just degreasing it. Any gun solvent, parts cleaner (brakleen, carb cleaner, varsol) will work just as well. You'll fully strip the rifle, clean all the parts, inspect everything for obvious flaws or damage then lube and reassemble. There's plenty of info on the web to help you along. Then there's a couple tests found in the stickies to make sure the rifle is ready to fire. If it passes the tests then its range time.
 
I dunno, Ive sold 4 or 5 of these on the EE with happy new owners. I would not buy an unfired gun on the EE, as there could be problems that arent discovered yet.

The only problem rifle i sold was advertised as a parts gun, gone in 1 hr.

Ymmv
New is $200 more than used.
 
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