M305 Feed-ramp problem - Fixed
- Thread starter Zen_Seeker
- Start date
72 is double what I have. I don't think I could even fit 72 dints on it...mine must be a bit larger. Added the locktite early this morning so well see how that goes.
After cleaning and greasing I tested everything stage by stage as I assembled it. Everything seemed fine until I put the trigger group back in and locked it up. It seems like the Archangel stock is pinching or pushing on something after the trigger group is locked in. As soon as I unlock it things are smoother.
I then switched back to the old synthetic stock to test and things seem fine. So that to me means something isn't fitting right with the Archangel stock. I suspect the trigger group needs more freedom as I still have it pretty tight and it might be mucking things up.
When in the Archangel stock I rarely can cycle the action with my left hand. (I'm right handed.) Once back in the OEM stock I'm able to cycle the action left handed. I also found that it will cycle all the rounds in the stock magazines but still has trouble getting the nose up from the A1A magazines.
So after all this I'll test in the OEM stock but I think the Archangel stock needs to be filed down. Not sure where yet but at least I know it's not the "rifle".
I'll finish reporting on this issue once I test, and again when the Archangel stock works smoothly. At least someone else might benifit.
Any ideas on how to improve the A1A mags legally so the nose doesn't get jammed into the feed ramp groove?
L8r,
Zen
After cleaning and greasing I tested everything stage by stage as I assembled it. Everything seemed fine until I put the trigger group back in and locked it up. It seems like the Archangel stock is pinching or pushing on something after the trigger group is locked in. As soon as I unlock it things are smoother.
I then switched back to the old synthetic stock to test and things seem fine. So that to me means something isn't fitting right with the Archangel stock. I suspect the trigger group needs more freedom as I still have it pretty tight and it might be mucking things up.
When in the Archangel stock I rarely can cycle the action with my left hand. (I'm right handed.) Once back in the OEM stock I'm able to cycle the action left handed. I also found that it will cycle all the rounds in the stock magazines but still has trouble getting the nose up from the A1A magazines.
So after all this I'll test in the OEM stock but I think the Archangel stock needs to be filed down. Not sure where yet but at least I know it's not the "rifle".
I'll finish reporting on this issue once I test, and again when the Archangel stock works smoothly. At least someone else might benifit.
Any ideas on how to improve the A1A mags legally so the nose doesn't get jammed into the feed ramp groove?
L8r,
Zen
yeah she's bedded
Go look on mystic precision website for info about getting the archangel to fit properly under the Norinco receiver.
But it WELL be less smooth with the trigger installed because it's got to move the hammer in order to cycle. Without the trigger group it should be very smooth because the only resistance is the spring and minor friction (shouldn't be much friction if you've greased it right).
What does the nose of your hammer look like? By nose I mean the little piece that sticks out the front of it, just to the right (when looking at it from the front) of the flat spot that strikes the firing pin. Is it smooth with the finish worn off or is it dented/damaged?
Mine got damaged and it was very hard to cycle and would jam up a lot. Put a brand new garand hammer (they are the same hammer) in and it worked like butter.
Just found the instructions in the garage, they are rolled up which is a pain but I'll try the web site as well.
This is to the point where if I let go of the action it stops the bolt just past the bolt catch, even without a mag in. That's a lot more than a little friction. If I wack it it will continue to close. This doesn't happen in the OEM stock.
I'll have to get back to you on that...put things away and prepping for dinner. BBQ tonight.
Hopefully it won't be that bad as it works fine in the original stock but I'll keep that in mind. At least we have plenty of after market parts to select from.
Hammer is fine, just the paints worn off.
I couldn't sleep last night so I took things all apart and started trouble shooting things. Looks like the Archangel stock is squeezing the trigger group a bit to tight. The hammer seems to be binding when you first pull back the oprod. If left unfired but cocked the oprod moves a little better, but once fired it's harder to work the action. I suspect that the bolt is having trouble pushing back the hammer but as this only occurs the first time any additional movement of the oprod has less friction, until fired.
Using my trusty white lithium grease spray from CT I was able to get deep into the trigger group and spray the side plate the hammer rubs against as well as a few other spots. That helped a lot but it's still tight. Switching back to the original stock and things work great with the OEM magazines. Still having issues with the A1A mags either the bolt slides over the round on occation or the tip of the round hits the groove in the feed ramp and stops the action.
I'll know more after I test in the original stock.
L8r
I couldn't sleep last night so I took things all apart and started trouble shooting things. Looks like the Archangel stock is squeezing the trigger group a bit to tight. The hammer seems to be binding when you first pull back the oprod. If left unfired but cocked the oprod moves a little better, but once fired it's harder to work the action. I suspect that the bolt is having trouble pushing back the hammer but as this only occurs the first time any additional movement of the oprod has less friction, until fired.
Using my trusty white lithium grease spray from CT I was able to get deep into the trigger group and spray the side plate the hammer rubs against as well as a few other spots. That helped a lot but it's still tight. Switching back to the original stock and things work great with the OEM magazines. Still having issues with the A1A mags either the bolt slides over the round on occation or the tip of the round hits the groove in the feed ramp and stops the action.
I'll know more after I test in the original stock.
L8r
Ok, what you're going to need to do is bed the area where the trigger wings and the back of the trigger seat into the stock.
First things first, when you put the trigger group in, slowly close the trigger guard. When you feel it start to give you resistance, liked you feel the fingers engage the lugs on the receiver, how far down is the trigger guard? It should not be past the tip of the trigger much at all, if at all.
If you want to bed it, there are a few techniques, I just had Barney over at my house today and he showed me the ins and outs, and it's honesty not that hard to do if you're careful and use lots of release agent.
First things first, when you put the trigger group in, slowly close the trigger guard. When you feel it start to give you resistance, liked you feel the fingers engage the lugs on the receiver, how far down is the trigger guard? It should not be past the tip of the trigger much at all, if at all.
If you want to bed it, there are a few techniques, I just had Barney over at my house today and he showed me the ins and outs, and it's honesty not that hard to do if you're careful and use lots of release agent.
I don't know a lot about bedding but I thought it was to keep things tight fitting or snug so that the harmonics of the rifle are good and no flexing occurs so accuracy improves? I believe the trigger group in the Archangel stock is to tight and causing friction, or maybe misalign something slightly. Applying a large amount of grease made things better temporarily but I think some material needs to be removed. Am I misunderstanding something or is my logic wrong?
Additionally bedding the area would void the warranty. Not a huge deal if I knew it would resolve the issue once and for all but if it doesn't I'm out $400.
I still need to test the rifle in the original stock just to make sure the magazines do feed properly and that the oprod barrel ring stays in place now. Manual testing looks good but only goes so far. The A1A magazines seem to lower the bullet nose just enough for the point to get stuck in the groove cut into the feedramp. (I'm not sure what that groove or channel is for at the moment but I assume it's for the bolt.)
I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and guess that you haven't modified the stock (enough) on the top right hand surface of the stock, under the receiver.
So your rifle action is sitting at an angle (right side higher) to the trigger group.
Ya, I could see that causing all kinds of problems.
So your rifle action is sitting at an angle (right side higher) to the trigger group.
Ya, I could see that causing all kinds of problems.
Last edited:
I'm thinking I might have filed on a slight angle on the inside wall to make the Norc trigger group fit. Eyes aren't what they used to be and glasses only help so much. I haven't touched the top of the stock as it seems to be sitting as it should going by the vendors info but as that would also change the angle I'll keep it in mind. I want to be sure before I remove any more material.
If all goes well in the OEM stock when I test fire next week, if not sooner, then I at least have the issues nailed down and can dig into solving it. Just wish I didn't have to travel 2+ hours in order to test fire. Time to move north I think.
Thanks all the feedback!
Zen
If you didn't file the top right side of your stock to match the norinco receiver, that is exactly what All the problems you are having is being caused by.
Don't care what the vendor tells you.
Archangel stocks are made for the M1A
This is extensively covered in the forum stickies in fact.
:facepalm:
Back to the drawing board I suppose
Don't care what the vendor tells you.
Archangel stocks are made for the M1A
This is extensively covered in the forum stickies in fact.
:facepalm:
Back to the drawing board I suppose
Last edited:
This....
I thought that was done, OP you said you had seen Jerry's sure (mystic precision) and the video/article on how to install the Norinco into an archangel? If not then do that, don't even bother troubleshooting until that's done. You literally have absolutely no reason to bother trying anything else until that's done.
Warranty on what? The Norinco? Bedding wouldn't matter at all you're not doing anything to the receiver if you bed.
But until you make sure the stock is modified to work with your receiver, that also doesn't matter.
My guess is your problems will disappear after you fit the stock, you shouldn't need to bed it to get it to work, but I guess you never know with the shop class produced Norinco
The groove on the feed ramp is to guide the bullet nose in.
If your mag isn't high enough in the receiver, then this exact thing could happen. File the stock
Oh and you don't need to go to the range to test it.
Make up (or ask someone to make up) a magazine worth of dummy rounds. Then you can load them up and test the feeding etc without doing something so dumb as to load it rifle at hone to test feeding (since we're in Canada you'd be destroyed legally for doing that if the gun accidentally went off).
Just make sure you colour the cases with black marker so you KNOW that you're loading dummy rounds.
Then you can test the feeding all you want and you don't need the range to do it
Make up (or ask someone to make up) a magazine worth of dummy rounds. Then you can load them up and test the feeding etc without doing something so dumb as to load it rifle at hone to test feeding (since we're in Canada you'd be destroyed legally for doing that if the gun accidentally went off).
Just make sure you colour the cases with black marker so you KNOW that you're loading dummy rounds.
Then you can test the feeding all you want and you don't need the range to do it
Cut a groove aprox 6 1/4 inches long on the right side of your stock
The heel of the receiver has to sit flush with the stock...no gap.
This shows the area of the receiver that is shaped different than non chinese models.It has the bottom of the receiver shaped at an angle.If the groove is not cut in the stock you will never get it to fit right. As well ensure the rifle will pass the " after assembly trigger test" to make sure you dont get a slam fire .Are you familiar with how to do this test ?
The heel of the receiver has to sit flush with the stock...no gap.
This shows the area of the receiver that is shaped different than non chinese models.It has the bottom of the receiver shaped at an angle.If the groove is not cut in the stock you will never get it to fit right. As well ensure the rifle will pass the " after assembly trigger test" to make sure you dont get a slam fire .Are you familiar with how to do this test ?
Of the 14 stickies on the "Main Battle Rifles" thread only three seemed to be of any use to me in general and of the three I read I didn't see anything covering Archangel stocks.
Since your sitting close to 6000 posts I'm sure you know where most things are and even made/helped with their creation but I didn't find it and a title search didn't pop it up for me. Now that I know I'll look again. (A link would have been nice but since I'm the dumb a$$ who missed it I'll dig for it.
)As a geek I lose patients with nontechnical people too so I can understand the facepalm but keep in mind I joined this forum because I knew I needed to learn things. Including the "why" I need to do something before I void a warranty. Now it looks like I have no choice despite what the vendor said.
Thanks for the clarification,
Zen
I found the link and steps to modify the Archangel stock, no video, but as it was a major change to the stock that would void the warranty I followed the vendors advise first. Cutting into a new stock and making all those changes only to find out I was wrong or following the wrong steps to fix my problem would have left me with a useless lump of plastic and $400 in the hole.
There is as much bad advice on the net as there is good so knowing which I should follow is not always easy so following the vendors first seemed prudent. Now it seems I'm at the point I don't have a choice. It seems some M305 owners get a drop-in fit while others, like me, need to go further. It also sucks that I don't always get to know why I have to do something when the instructions say otherwise. I guess I'm not a very trusting person but I'm trying.
Thanks,
Zen
No, I meant the warranty on the Archangel stock. The original stock I was planning to stipple and improve for hunting use at a later date.
As I now seem to be at the point I need to trust the advice I'm offered I guess I'll find out soon enough.My guess is your problems will disappear after you fit the stock, you shouldn't need to bed it to get it to work, but I guess you never know with the shop class produced Norinco
I don't have an account anywhere to post photos, and don't plan on making one, but the groove I mean is the perpendicular one that is half moon shaped that runs through the middle of the two feed ramps. It probably assists with the round locking into the bolt so it can be extracted but I haven't looked into it.
The OEM stock doesn't like the A1A mags either but that doesn't mean it's a good fit either, being a Norc. But we'll see how things go with the Archangel stock before I move onto the OEM one. Regardless I can see how lowering the contact points would raise the lip of the mag and by default the bullet contact point. I just hope it doesn't become lose and sloppy. (At least I have JB Weld around somewhere if needed.)
Thansk again,
Zen
I made a few blanks, and it helped, but it's not the same. The recoil was needed to see if the oprod ring was going to stay in place for one thing.Oh and you don't need to go to the range to test it.
Make up (or ask someone to make up) a magazine worth of dummy rounds. Then you can load them up and test the feeding etc without doing something so dumb as to load it rifle at hone to test feeding (since we're in Canada you'd be destroyed legally for doing that if the gun accidentally went off).
Just make sure you colour the cases with black marker so you KNOW that you're loading dummy rounds.
Then you can test the feeding all you want and you don't need the range to do it
I'm finding that this rifle is a lot like a computer or application. To many changes at once and you make trouble shooting a pain in the a$$.
