M305 is terrible.

staryoskol said:
I understand what you're saying, but I honestly don't think it's me. I'm not an expert shooter but I'm not bad either. I can consistently shoot 1.5" or better at 100yds with a R700 in .223

That being said, I do think it's a good idea to have someone else shoot it as well, to be sure.
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You will need that confidence many times over your career as a shooter. Something is fecked with your sighting gear. Something happened when you changed ranges.
 
M305s and other M1A-type rifles are very sensitive to ammo. High quality match ammo, like the Barnes bullets that you bought, might not be what shoots well in your rifle. Try Hornady 168 match ammo and a variety of other brands. The best solution is to work up a load for the rifle but that would mean a jump into reloading.

The 3-round group at 50 yards is likely not indicative of how the rifle is performing, I'd recommend 5 round groups minimum (but I recognize that commercial match ammo is expensive). You may have "fluked" a nice 3-round group at 50 yards while the 100 yard group is more indicative of how the rifle performs with that ammo. Your initial tests seem to suggest this.

One thing you might want to keep in mind is that many M305 rifles seem to be sensitive to barrel temperature. The first 3 or so rounds from a cold/cool barrel will string vertically then the group will stabilize. I find that a warm-up is needed even after a target change. Going from the 50 yard to 100 yard ranges may have allowed your barrel to cool enough to throw the first few shots. My rifle always shoots 2 MOA high and 1 MOA left from a cold bore. The shots then drift down and then the groups stabilize to under 1.5 MOA. This is with my hand loads.

Accurizing an M305, even in a Blackfeather, is needed to get good performance but it will never shoot with even a sub-standard bolt action rifle. What optics are you using?

See the thread below to calibrate your expectations of the platform.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1049913-M1A-Precision-Challenge-1-5-MOA
 
Pr589 said:
M305s and other M1A-type rifles are very sensitive to ammo. High quality match ammo, like the Barnes bullets that you bought, might not be what shoots well in your rifle. Try Hornady 168 match ammo and a variety of other brands. The best solution is to work up a load for the rifle but that would mean a jump into reloading.

The 3-round group at 50 yards is likely not indicative of how the rifle is performing, I'd recommend 5 round groups minimum (but I recognize that commercial match ammo is expensive). You may have "fluked" a nice 3-round group at 50 yards while the 100 yard group is more indicative of how the rifle performs with that ammo. Your initial tests seem to suggest this.

One thing you might want to keep in mind is that many M305 rifles seem to be sensitive to barrel temperature. The first 3 or so rounds from a cold/cool barrel will string vertically then the group will stabilize. I find that a warm-up is needed even after a target change. Going from the 50 yard to 100 yard ranges may have allowed your barrel to cool enough to throw the first few shots. My rifle always shoots 2 MOA high and 1 MOA left from a cold bore. The shots then drift down and then the groups stabilize to under 1.5 MOA. This is with my hand loads.

Accurizing an M305, even in a Blackfeather, is needed to get good performance but it will never shoot with even a sub-standard bolt action rifle. What optics are you using?

See the thread below to calibrate your expectations of the platform.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1049913-M1A-Precision-Challenge-1-5-MOA
Click to expand...

That was all really helpful, thank you. I'm using a Vortex Viper HST 6-24x on the rifle.
 
Couple questions. Are the groups mostly vertical by chance?
The blackfeather has an adjustable op rod guide that you can adjust the tension in the stock correct? Might be something to look at? Is it adjusted properly? Or have you tried adjusting it?
I did an experiment with mine that involved modifying a factory op rod guide and bedding and bolting it down, in an effort to mimic the black feather or sage set up. The first few rounds out of a cold barrel were usually pretty decent, but as soon as the barrel got any kind of heat into it it would string vertically like crazy.
I put the original op rod guide back in. After my 3rd bedding job I was finally happy with everything and it is very consistently under 1.5 moa with hand loaded 155 amax. I am super happy with mine especially for the lack of $$ I have put into it.
 
I don't know if it was pointed out, but blaming the M305 for being terrible is silly when most of the rifle's been changed or replaced.

If it's anything like mine it's super duper fussy about the ammo. With 150 grain hornady bullets, 42 grains will get a 2 inch group, but 41.5 and 42.5 it'll open up nearly double. Either be happy with what it does or get into handloading. There's no inbetween.
 
CanuckR said:
Couple questions. Are the groups mostly vertical by chance?
The blackfeather has an adjustable op rod guide that you can adjust the tension in the stock correct? Might be something to look at? Is it adjusted properly? Or have you tried adjusting it?
I did an experiment with mine that involved modifying a factory op rod guide and bedding and bolting it down, in an effort to mimic the black feather or sage set up. The first few rounds out of a cold barrel were usually pretty decent, but as soon as the barrel got any kind of heat into it it would string vertically like crazy.
I put the original op rod guide back in. After my 3rd bedding job I was finally happy with everything and it is very consistently under 1.5 moa with hand loaded 155 amax. I am super happy with mine especially for the lack of $$ I have put into it.
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This!!! Plus verify that your gas piston did not come loose, that the gas system is unitize and that the op rod guide is correctly mounted to the barrel.
 
Use federal gold medal match, 168 grain. If fgmm can't shoot in it, something is off. My guess is the barrel is crap. Getting precision out of a rifle comes with a good square barrel, after ammo.
 
Well like said before there ar alot of things to check out first before the barrel. The tention on the barrel via the op rod guide is probably way off.
 
FALover said:
Post #5-Norinco barrel. You can change everything on it and it will always be a M305. Not a M1A or M-14.
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I'm not an expert on the topic, we all love decking out our guns. Was precision in mind when the build started or just something that kind of started to happen ?
It sounds like you have sunk a lot of money into this, to me why not just build a bolt gun from the start of accuracy was in mind ?
 
Canadiankeeper said:
I'm not an expert on the topic, we all love decking out our guns. Was precision in mind when the build started or just something that kind of started to happen ?
It sounds like you have sunk a lot of money into this, to me why not just build a bolt gun from the start of accuracy was in mind ?
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I think the op bought it that way. Probably paid dearly for the plastic (tactical) stock and muzzle brake etc. The op rod guide adjustment seems to be news to him. Maybe not, but sounds like he expected some "bolt ons" to make it into a precision rifle.
 
4"@100M is regular accuracy for an M305. This is what #1 post said he was getting. Why the surprise? Yes, I had 2 different ones. They shot the same, 3 very close, 2 "fliers". I wasn't going to change the barrel, so I sold them.
 
Sounds like you have changed the stock and left the "rifle" original Norinco... ????

Any M1A type rifle needs proper bedding and set up.

Any M1A type rifle needs handloads tailored to the harmonics of each specific set up. Yes, they are very fussy. They need to run 7.62NATO type 1960s spec ammo tuned around their harmonic needs.

You are using 308 Win ammo designed for bolt action rifles... the powder is wrong, the pressures are wrong, the bullets are way too heavy.

Set it up properly, feed it what it likes (150gr or 155gr over a moderate charge of faster for cartridge powder)... better results will likely occur.

Jerry
 
I had an M-305 built up a very similar way with a Black feather chassis and it took a long time to tune down to a consistent 1.5 moa, with the odd 1 moa group, with the the factory 22" barrel.

I was lucky that my rifle came with pretty tight headspace, some come from the factory with pretty loose headspace.

The biggest improvements came from my reloads using Berger 155.5gr with IMR4895 and tuning the barrel tension screw on the underside of the chassis. I did load testing to find a good load, then tuned the barrel tension, then came back to load testing to refine even more. I burned up a lot of powder to find accuracy equal to some of the worse off the shelf bolt guns, but it was a fun adventure. I eventually traded it off for a TRG which makes life a hell of a lot easier!

Focus on the load and the barrel tension and you should start to see some results, assuming there isn't anything completely messed up else where in your system.

I really like the M-305's and I would definitely buy another but next time I will build it up with national match iron sights and a nice walnut stock for a more traditional rifle.

One last point, the Norinco receivers are excellent and are used my many for high end "M-14" type builds. The barrels and bolts can be hit or miss. If you buy a Norinco just make sure you are aware that it is a bit of a lottery for what you'll get, but the receivers are almost always worth the ~$500 price tag.
 
I'm not sure what you were expecting to see for groups with a chinese action and barrel but that doesn't look too terrible considering you have never mentioned doing anything to improve accuracy other than putting it in a different stock.
Putting an M-305 in a different stock with a PRS and a relatively cheap scope won't magically turn your rifle into a tack-driver.
I would go on tactical teachers forum and register for the next M-14 clinic. Barney will teach you everything you need to know about that rifle.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/335-Tactical-Teacher

I don't remember you saying anything about being a handloader but there may be some info in this article that could help you understand the M-14's ammo requirements a little better and have more realistic goals from your particular rifle.
http://www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html
Just touch the pic of the book to open the article in pdf.
 
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There's a great post in one of the stickies in the correct forum (ie main battle rifles) by Hungry (aka Tactical Teacher) about how much of a money pit/rabbit hole trying to put together a M21/M25 dmr type setup can be. I don't think you can honestly get a M14 type rifle to reliably shoot sub-moa with a norc barrel. I have one that I bedded in a USGI mod stock with the usual mods (nm oprod spring guide, oprod guide properly aligned, shimmed USGI gas system, trigger smoothed out) that will routinely shoot sub-1.5moa with handloads taylored for it. That's about as realistic an expectation you can have with a stock barrel and that's if you luck out and get a good one and properly work up a load that it likes.
 
OP here,

I seem to be getting a lot of flak over this. Let me just clarify that I am relatively new to shooting. I don't know anything about hand loading, but I will be doing some research into that.

Also, I did not put this rifle together so I don't know much about the internals etc...the reason I was hopeful for better groups is because the guy I bought it from on here said he was shooting 1.5MOA no problem with it.

I was expecting better from the rifle, but I clearly see now that I was wrong to do so. You guys are a lot smarter than me, and most of what everyone is saying is over my head to be honest...I think I'm going to sell it and get a bolt action and work on my marksmanship as well as trying to better understand the difference in bullet weights and loads etc..

Thanks everyone for your replies, glad to see that when I do have questions, there's no shortage of knowledgable members on here to help.
 
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