M855: question for the experts
- Thread starter RevolverRodger
- Start date
I'm not sure where you studied their philosophy, but we were taught the exact opposite. The soviet army was tank heavy and designed to advance, advance, advance. They used defense only sparingly to prepare for...the advance.
No, most western designed projectiles were found to fragment. There was no design intent. Eastern bullets don't fragment because they use steel jackets almost exclusively and they are thicker than need be due to the ease of manufacture of the thicker jackets. So basically because it is cheaper.
I agree.
That is exactly the point. Last time I visited TSE I remember you lacked the accent that I'd say gives one the prerequisite of knowing what I wrote.
Some more than others. The German made 7.62x51 fragmented a lot more than the NA made ones.
That I would argue. It is one very good way to create multiple wound channels without being in violation of the famous Convention.
We are finally getting back on topic. I -again - disagree with you. There are entire Eastern armies that do not field a single type of steel jacket projectile for small arms. I've been in this argument before and I could only convince the other party by grinding half of a projectile to show exactly what's inside.
It is [FONT="]presumptuous[/FONT] to extrapolate the info one has on the recent 7.62x39 import ammo to all variants and developments of said caliber.... not to mention it's bigger brother.
I know that you have a wealth of information in your work environment, and I do not want to challenge that. I am just stating what I know from my own experience.
I'm not sure what you mean, but to be certain there never was and never will be a small arms ammo designed and manufactured to wound rather than kill.
Sure and Swiss ammo is designed to minimize fragmentation. However the point is that the concept of bullet fragmentation as it relates to lethality came about after the fact. The current family of NATO ammunition had already been designed and accepted prior to studies looking at lethality due to fragmentation.[/quote]
I'm talking about bullet jackets not cores. What is inside certainly affects things, as there is unlikely to be much fragmentation if the bullet has a steel core. However my point is that steel jackets reduce fragmentation in combloc bullets.
I know that Yugoslavia produced copper jacketed ammo, but I don't know of any others. Of course even so, the big guys (Russia, E Germany, China), all used steel jackets almost exclusively, so most of the ammo floating around the world is also steel jacketed.
The best factually based info I have found from the 5.45 is that it got the air tip due to manufacturing process, is much the same way the Sierra Match King bullets are OTM (Open Tip match bullets - the word of the week for Hollow Point Boat Tail), in the way that the smaller bullet was really at the limit of Russian mass production to build round. Then some moron (Soldier of Fortune writer IIRC) saw the 5.45 bullet and without any real evidence, claimed it was an inhumane bullet designed for greater wounding.
A ten year old could have designed the bullet to behave more inhumanely, and the Russians with their butterfly mines in Afghan, where none to be squeemish at when it came to an opportunity for mayhem and cruelty, so my guess would be if they had actually intended 5.45 to be a more effective round they would have done so.
A ten year old could have designed the bullet to behave more inhumanely, and the Russians with their butterfly mines in Afghan, where none to be squeemish at when it came to an opportunity for mayhem and cruelty, so my guess would be if they had actually intended 5.45 to be a more effective round they would have done so.
Does the tip cause yaw in a target when it hits? Or does it just perform like all other rounds like this at high velocity and fragment? Is fragmentation vastly superior to yaw like movement on impact? Thanks for the info, looks like im gonna have to throw out my SOF collection now
While not an ballistics expert by any means, I can perhaps offer something that can shed some light on the whole "5.56mm is designed to spall, tumble, fragment and etc" discussion.
Under the Hague Conventions adopted 26 Jan 1910 (often misquoted as the Geneva Conventions) it states the following;
"Art. 23.
In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden -
To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;"
Source:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague04.asp
End quote,
The intentional design to have small arms projectiles that expand (see dum-dum rounds) spall, or fragment by a subscribing country would be a violation of this agreement.
This intentional wounding thing is nonsense, small arms ammunition is designed to kill enemy combatants, seeking to incompasitate or neutralize the enemy is the overall aim of combat operations not the individual rifleman.
Under the Hague Conventions adopted 26 Jan 1910 (often misquoted as the Geneva Conventions) it states the following;
"Art. 23.
In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden -
To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;"
Source:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague04.asp
End quote,
The intentional design to have small arms projectiles that expand (see dum-dum rounds) spall, or fragment by a subscribing country would be a violation of this agreement.
This intentional wounding thing is nonsense, small arms ammunition is designed to kill enemy combatants, seeking to incompasitate or neutralize the enemy is the overall aim of combat operations not the individual rifleman.
FYI in 2004 in Afghan our OC weighed the troops the C6 gunner carried the most weight at around 150 extra lbs - inc gun.
C9 gunners where next.
M203 Grenadiers
C7CT DM
then 'riflemen'
Given a medic won't have frags, M72's, half the ammo etc that an Infanteer will, I dont see the way anyone can get that a medic would have that much stuff.
Secondly no one will be mobile, much less combat effective with double (or more) their body weight.
P.S. Navy Shooter -- I have some better copies
P.S. Impact velocity of M855/C77 for fragmentation is around 2500 not 2700 (depending on fleet yaw) [but larger fewer chunks as the velocity decreases] as the penetrator helps in upset with the SS109 round, which the M193 round does not have, as well as the additional lenght of the SS109 round.
Does the tip cause yaw in a target when it hits? Or does it just perform like all other rounds like this at high velocity and fragment? Is fragmentation vastly superior to yaw like movement on impact? Thanks for the info, looks like im gonna have to throw out my SOF collection now
Check the chart from Kevin's previous post. No the tip does not cause tumbling, the fact that the projectile is longer than it is wide and physics causes it to tumble, all rounds that fit these criteria will(FMJ that is) if they don't fragment.
TDC
Blah blah blah. Bullets hitting in the right places, fired at the ranges intended, work just fine. If you want to shoot targets at greater distances, how about a round designed for long range? Otherwise engage your targets at ranges that work for what you're carrying, after all, the ak47 isn't exactly a tack driver beyond 500m. Here's a thought: don't throw out your old weapons, just because of fashion. The m14 is doing quite well in the sand box and I'm sure the Fn fal would work nice too. Too bad we melted them eh? I recently read a book on early cia involvement in Afghanistan. The rifle they bought by the tens of thousands for the mujahideen? The Lee Enfield. Apparently, early thinkers felt it was more suitable for the terrain.
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BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
I love the "If you wound a soldier it takes three more to carry him out" fantasy. I wouldn't want to be the commander counting on wounding the enemy into submission.
Just as silly as monty python's black night sketch.
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
No I was straight up saying that unless a certain person had something of value to bring to this thread they should read and not post. Video gamers and air soft clowns are really getting under my skin online and in my daily life.
End rant.
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
Or a pointed wood plug filling the air space to prevent the lead core from shifting.
