M91 Mosin Nagant ID help (pics!!!)

louthepou

louthepou

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Hi folks,

Well I can find my way around more recent M44 and M38, and the usual M91/30 most of the time, but this one, I'm slightly at a loss, sorry.

Just got this M91 that needs (hopefully) just a bit of basic care to be in better shape.
Picture217.jpg

Picture213.jpg


Now, I know that Allen Keys weren't around, so I will need to check if (pleaaase) the thread is intact in those bands. And, are these bands original? (And, where could I source some original screws...)
Picture215.jpg


This is, as much as I know, the "Imperial Eagle" from Peter the Great below the early Izhevsk stamp:
Picture225.jpg


The same Imperial Eagle, I believe.
Picture227.jpg


This would make this rifle an Imperial Izhevsk-made M91. That sounds good but I'll admit that I don't know what this means, historically speaking.

Another set of marks:
Picture228.jpg


The "SA" is a Finnish Army property mark. And the sling swivels are Finnish too. So, this would be a Finnish-captured M91? ANd the other mark on the left (the circled "11")... ???

Thanks for any input!

Lou "eager to learn about history" The Pou
 
M91 Bands

Careful with the bands. If they are original M91 (as they look to be) then they don't use screws that thread into the band on the other side. The screw head is fixed to a cap on the other side (ie. what looks like that allen key) and you screw it clockwise to spread the band if you want to remove it. If you assume they are screws and turn them counterclockwise, you will be tightening the band.
 
The "11" is a Cyrillic "P", showing it's passed proof. The Factory is Izhevsk with 1912 as it's maufacture date. It has been Finn captured and modified to usual Finnish spec.
 
Hey Lou!

NICE rifle, I really love the early Izhevesk M91s. The bands are original M91 bands and are correct for an M91 of that year, however the screw for the bands should not need an allen key. They should be straight, following the same pattern as the two action screws. I believe the screws have been replaced. Not a big deal at all, as long as they are tight!

The eagle you refer to is indeed the Imperial Tsarist eagle - looks to be a nice, sharp, deep, clean stamp. Consider yourself lucky! A lot of times they were poorly struck/faded from wear.

The SA is indeed a Suomen Armeija (sp) stamp - indicating Finn army property. The D stamp is also an indication of a Finn capture/purchase. The D stamp indicated that the rifle has been modified (under Finn service) to accept the D166 "heavy ball" Finn cartridge. Almost all Finn rifles I have seen have this stamp. The "II" stamp is a black powder proof mark ( I believe).

The stock looks sanded/refinished. Most M91s I have seen have really dark, beat up old stocks. I could be wrong - I am nowhere near an expert. You also have the early copper rivits on the handguard - another nice touch.


What is the date on the tang of the reciever? Are there any Finn added shims? How is the bbl? Is it matching?

When are you putting it up on the EE! :D :p
 
Thanks guys, much appreciated.

I wonder if the bands have been re-treaded, because I took them off and the screws are regular allen keys. but the bands appear otherwise original.

The wood may have been sanded at some point but signs are not obvious. Although there are some areas where the wood seems "thin" (areas around the receiver tang, and butt plate).
Picture233.jpg

Picture231.jpg


I can't see a date on the receiver tang but I see a circled "R" on the underside of the tang.

The number on the barrel matches the butt stock, and the bolt (although that one's been renumbered, old serial number crossed out). The magazine floor plate doesn't match.

What surprised me is that the bore is really, really, really nice. Unexpected.

Lou

Another pic (markings on the butt plate)
Picture230.jpg
 
Interesting the Finns never bothered to scrub the Russian markings... it must have been a stamp-and-go rifle, proofed and not actually built from parts.
 
Drachenblut said:
Interesting the Finns never bothered to scrub the Russian markings... it must have been a stamp-and-go rifle, proofed and not actually built from parts.
Click to expand...

Some rifles they didn't even touch except to mark "SA" on the barrel. I have a 1915 New England Westinghouse that is more or less original that the Finns got a hold of.


Unfortunately for this one Bubba got to it, it will make a nice shooter I bet, provided the barrel isn't a sewer pipe.
 
Drachenblut said:
Interesting the Finns never bothered to scrub the Russian markings... it must have been a stamp-and-go rifle, proofed and not actually built from parts.
Click to expand...

The Finns didnt bother to scrub markings most of the time - they just stamped an "SA" and usually a "D". From what Ive seen most rifles that have been scrubbed were done post war. Occasionaly you will see ground off Imperial eagles. A few theories for this exist, the main one being the bolshevisks ground them off post Russian revolution.
 
In regards to the reciever it sounds as though it is a Remington made piece. Who knows where and when the bbl was mated to that reciever. It could have been done in Finn service, Russian etc... etc....
 
I have a 1906 Tul'ski and a 1907 Sestroryet'ski but yours is prettier!

And it's a Finn rifle, quite possibly one that was left behind when Russia pulled out in 1917. Finland was a Duchy of the Russian Empire for a time, although certainly not by the Finns' choice.

You'll have to watch this one very carefully: both of mine are still looking for Bolsheviks! I think they are taking their SA stamps a little too seriously, myself!

In the book I just finished writing there is a character called Aimo the Wizard. Aimo is a Finn, of course and comes out with the statement, "Aaah, the Romans were wusses, Sid. They never came up against the Finns. Only the Finns can rule the Finns; nobody else ever lives long enough!"

louthepou, you have a lovely old rifle.

ArtyMan, why would they use a Remington receiver (made 1915-1917) on a 1912 Izhev'ski rifle with all numbers matching (except the bolt, which they switched around with ### abandon)?

Have fun!
 
smellie said:
I have a 1906 Tul'ski and a 1907 Sestroryet'ski but yours is prettier!

And it's a Finn rifle, quite possibly one that was left behind when Russia pulled out in 1917. Finland was a Duchy of the Russian Empire for a time, although certainly not by the Finns' choice.

You'll have to watch this one very carefully: both of mine are still looking for Bolsheviks! I think they are taking their SA stamps a little too seriously, myself!

In the book I just finished writing there is a character called Aimo the Wizard. Aimo is a Finn, of course and comes out with the statement, "Aaah, the Romans were wusses, Sid. They never came up against the Finns. Only the Finns can rule the Finns; nobody else ever lives long enough!"

louthepou, you have a lovely old rifle.

ArtyMan, why would they use a Remington receiver (made 1915-1917) on a 1912 Izhev'ski rifle with all numbers matching (except the bolt, which they switched around with ### abandon)?

Have fun!
Click to expand...

On many Mosins you will find a plethora of parts from different years/arsenals/countries etc... This is usually due to the rifles being reworked SEVERAL times over by different countries. A lot of times other countries (the Finns especially) would take any and all serviceable parts off of a rifle and "throw them into the bin" - whereas they would discard/melt down etc.. any worn/unserviceable parts. When the time came, they assembled what rifles they could from whatever parts they had on hand. Im not saying this is the case with this rifle - its impossible to tell and I am by no means an expert.

I myself have a 1901 Sestroryetsk M1891 with an 1897 Izhevesk reciever. This could have been done in 1901 at the Ses. arsenal from a destroyed/worn out Izhevesk rifle, or later in life when the Finns took possesion. There really is no way to know reliably. On this same rifle, it has a German WW1 capture mark on the stock, Austrian marks, New England Westinghouse parts, Tula striker, Izhevesk reciever and a Remington barrel band and yet the bolt itself is a matched Ses part. Truly a mixmaster of parts! however I find that all the more interesting.

PS I would like to see some pics of your Sestroryetsk/Tula if you have them on hand!
 
smellie said:
You'll have to watch this one very carefully: both of mine are still looking for Bolsheviks! I think they are taking their SA stamps a little too seriously, myself!
Click to expand...

Im told I shouldnt have my Imperial M1891 beside my 1919 Tula M1891 in the gun safe or they will fight :p:p
 
louthepou said:
Well this one may be Bubba-labeled as well to a certain extent, I'm pretty sure the barrel has been reblued.
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I wouldnt say "Bubba'd" as much as refinished. Technically it is, but a bubba typically destroyes a firearm - I would say that rifle is no where near destroyed. Its interesting that the number on the stock is so evident, if it was sanded, it was before that number was added from what I can see. This would lead me to believe it was refinished while in mil service? Just a guess but the blueing job on the bbl dosnt look like a standard "bubba" either. I could be wrong it is almost 3am!

A note the "II" mark on the receiver by the eagle I believe is to denote Tsar Nicholas the second. I'll have to check
 
That stock has definitely been sanded and varnished in Canada - sadly. It should be basically unsanded and have a pine tar finish. Also, the allen keys are a bubba mod because some numpty tried to loosen the bands by turning clockwise and broke the original screws. Replacements are hard to come by...
 
Thanks Arty.

Claven, I doubt I'll find replacements, so I think I'm simply going to find flat head screws with the same thread. As far as the wood goes, I will strip the bubba'ed finish; what should I refinish it with?
 
I'm not trying to dispute Claven's post, but if it were sanded in canada, wouldn't the number on the stock be a lot shallower, if not obliterated completely?
I'm just going by how the sheer amount that was removed is evident by how thin the wood is in certain places, but yet the stamp appears relatively crisp.
 
louthepou said:
Thanks Arty.

Claven, I doubt I'll find replacements, so I think I'm simply going to find flat head screws with the same thread. As far as the wood goes, I will strip the bubba'ed finish; what should I refinish it with?
Click to expand...

From 7.62x54r.net

Q. What is the original finish on Russian/Soviet stocks?
A. Shellac was used from the earliest production to the latest, probably because it is inexpensive and simple to use although it is not as durable as some finishes. Mosin Nagant stocks that appear to have an "oil" finish have just had the shellac worn off.

Q. What is the original finish on stocks from Finland?
A. There is a lot of variation in the finishes used over time and between the Army and Civil Guard. Many early Civil Guard stocks and some Army stocks are varnished. A mixture of equal parts beeswax, turpentine, and flaxseed oil is known to be one of the finishes used on M39s and other 1940s production.

To me, either would be correct as my M91s are both SA stamped and have a very dark finish which would lead me to believe the Finns did something with them.

Here is a picture of a few of my Mosins - the top three being Finn capture/acquired

DSCF0764.jpg


DSCF0757.jpg
 
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