r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Time will tell I guess, Who knows next batch of slr receivers might be even less money, exciting times lie ahead. My wallet is not going to be impressed.
Maccabee Defense SLR information and updates
- Thread starter jiffx2781
- Start date
Time will tell I guess, Who knows next batch of slr receivers might be even less money, exciting times lie ahead. My wallet is not going to be impressed.
onetwentyish
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East Central AB (AKA Northern Texas)
Wrote out the below largely as a general reply to not just your post about ATRS.
Please read before making/sharing further pre-concieved notions on ATRS MH, MV, and the new stripped reciever set - the MV-S
If you are referring to me as one of the ATRS fanboys, you could hardly be more wrong. While I love my ATRS rifles and accept them for what they are, I have been one of ATRS' biggest critics in several aspects of design and how rifles are offered for purchase, and the cost of shipping for warranty being placed on the consumer. (Hence why I just drive the 6hr round trip when a rifle needs something corrected. And yes both of my rifles have needed work, although one was a result of the previous owner)
ATRS has been very up front that due to the proprietary nature of the OG (og = original) MH and MV designs which require hand fitted / modified standard AR parts to fit and function properly, their insurance provider would only let them sell completely assembled, factory tested components (ie complete upper/complete lower).
The other thing to understand is that due to the proprietary design, 'stripped' reciever sets wouldn't really be stripped, as you would still need the following proprietary parts:
- trigger
-trigger retainer
-bolt release
-charging handle
-case deflector
-barrel extension
Then for factory fitted/modified parts you would still need:
-safety*
-bolt carrier*
As you can see by the above, the rifles are not at all feasible to be sold as 'stripped' reciever sets. Instead they would largely be complete rifles less:
-furniture*
-barrel*
-ejection port door*
-reciever extension/buffer tube & internals*
-reciever end plate*
-mag release*
-springs and pins
All of the above parts marked with an * can be substituted for parts of your choice, you just have to provide them to ATRS, and ATRS will even fit/modify any parts that need it. On my ATRS MV, I ordered the basic model furniture wise, but added the proof barrel and ambi mag release, then supplied my own stock (and requested a Milspec buffer tube) and fore end, and they substituted the cost of the of the stock and fore end by Cerakoting the stainless parts on my barrel black. (Roughly a $75 value.)
With this in mind, lets consider how feasible 'stripped' OG MH & MV recievers could have ever been... if they were even allowed to be sold by the insurer. Seems to me I am just better off planing my build, consulting with ATRS, sourcing the parts same as I would if I was building out my own, then ship them a big parcel of goodies to install on my rifle instead of basic parts that I would of changed on my own, and saved the difference.
And on the topic of the new MV-S design that does away with all things proprietary and/or fitted/modified (& insurance issues too!), other than the reciever design profile (which it maintains from the MV and disallows mating with AR recievers), this new design being in the works was public knowledge (although not advertised) that was available as early as February of 2016 (when I personally found out). My understanding is that Rick just didn't want to stir the pot until he had a FRT# and was ready to go into production. However he did let it slip once asked on CGN for the first time shortly after MDI revealed the SLR.
Things are not what they first appear as.
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unless you need the parts to have the caliber you want built, because then you are SOL unless you can borrow a complete rifle, have the parts made and then sent them to ATRS (if they will assemble with your custom parts that is)
onetwentyish
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East Central AB (AKA Northern Texas)
I think the new MV-S and SLR, along with any other direct competition in the NR 'pseudo AR market' will definitely become as cheap as manufacturing costs will allow for a margin to be maintained, and as a result any 'NR tax' on imports will need to be lowered. But its naive to think that the rest of these rifles can get any cheaper then what Irunguns already brings them in for. After all the new pseudo ARs in Canada will never be able to compete with the cheapness of mass produced genuine American ARs and these other non-AR rifles are already fighting for Market space in the US.
All of the non-restricted black rifles that are not pseudo AR-15s will simply sell less, not for less.
All of the non-restricted black rifles that are not pseudo AR-15s will simply sell less, not for less.
onetwentyish
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East Central AB (AKA Northern Texas)
This is a very interesting case that is specific to caliber conversions. Unfortunately if ATRS does not want to take on doing custom caliber conversions and additional testing for the rifles they are building at this time (although I am sure they would in the future once demand for allready completed designs), and ATRS' insurer won't allow them to sell stripped receiver sets, then that leaves you with only one option which is to buy a completed rifle weather new or used and send it to Heron Arms the same way you would any other non AR rifle. The point I am trying to make is that ATRS' Modern series rifles are not cut and dried AR rifles as Rick has been trying to tell everyone for a very long time. Once people get passed that notion, it usually makes sense.
Like R34 posted, the SKS, 305, T97, Mini series are all junk and are nowhere near the same quality or modularity of an AR or MD rifle. The VZ is a decent milsurp rifle that eats cheap food. The price of the aforementioned turds has no choice but to come down as they offer absolutely nothing over a MD(or ATRS) other than cheap prices.... Which aren't really that cheap. Regardless, the sales of the aforementioned turds and the other over priced NR rifles will slump as none of them offer the modularity of a MD.
Oh I'm of no delusion about the cost of piecing a system together as my MD build will cost me close to $3000 without optic. However, that is very close to what my AR's cost me to build as they sit now. Doing a near identical build for nearly identical money and the rifle being non restricted is something you can't say or do with any other NR rifle out there. Between a lack of modularity, lack of quality and/or high initial costs you simply cannot replicate the benefits of an AR or MD style rifle for the same money.
R34 has it figured out..
Remember, slightly less expensive but vastly superior as far as modularity goes and non restricted. There are a few folks who plan to build a M16 20" replica and are only into the gun for about $1850. That's still the ballpark of a quality milspec AR and is $600-$1800 cheaper than other similar non res offerings.
Again lets look at what is available and what they have going for them compared to the MD or ATRS systems(assuming the ATRS takes off the shelf AR bits).
MD/ATRS $1600 and up
-Ar parts compatibility
-Stocks
-Grips
-Triggers
-Forends
-Barrels
-muzzle devices
-Near endless customization
-Multi calibre capable
-Hunting capable(300 blk)
-Free float capable
-Uses cheap AR magazines
-ergonomic controls
The swiss $4000
-Free float capable
Tavor $2700
-Uses some AR magazines
Famae $2400
Mini14 $1000
Type 97 $1000
HAHAHAHA what a joke..
M305 $700
HAHAHA what a joke..
-Hunting capable
SKS $220
-hunting capable
HAHAHA what a joke..
VZ58/858 $1200
-Hunting capable
XCR $2600
-Uses AR magazines
-uses AR grips
-uses AR flash hiders(standard thread pitch)
-Hunting capable
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I can see it being many years before atrs offers custom calibers if ever at current rate of production. The MH/MV is already a 6 month min wait without the MV-S in production.
One can only hope a whole new production line of individuals and equipment is planned for the new product line
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Isn't the acr dmr almost $3000 and over 9lbs bare? Just curious. I myself totally forgot about that.
While it offers some similaresque features to the ar doesn't it also have some propietary parts with very limited barrel options? The overall weight is also a bit of a concern...
I also forgot the sl8. Which is also a bit heavy and lacks modularity. But at 2k not the worst priced option. Except i dont know if they still make them.
There is non restricted non dmr's. The current MV in its most basic version is on par price wise with the current acr, the ACR however has been on sale for considerably less over the years. Lots of aftermarket support and every part can be ordered from the Canadian importer, Gravel
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Interesting. I just looked around at the current stores and they were 3 grand plus, I guess I have to watch the prices. My SLR build will be lighter and in some ways I would argue better for less money, but I learned something new today, thanks. I was never interested in the MV/MH for the prices they were asking and knowing the guts were modified dpms.
I have multiple calibers in my acr's.
Only advantage I can currently say/hope for is that the SLR/MV-S/BCL will be lighter with the same reliability and accuracy I see with the ACR.
If not I can't see myself keeping one over the ACR
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
does the acr have a 300 blackout conversion? Just out of curiosity have you tested your acrs accuracy? If so what was the results? Obviously I'm not looking for PGW levels of accuracy out of a fighting semi auto rifle, but I would like something close to 1-1.5moa with good ammo
So answer me Kidd... why in the US does the Tavor sell so well st $1600 when a much better more modular AR sells at $500
Sure Bob won't buy a tavor since he can now buy a SLR... but that won't stop bill from buying a tavor... or it won't cause the tavor to drop in price...
Les's people buying them will mean less imported... and the exclusivity may mean higher prices for those interested.
Sure Bob won't buy a tavor since he can now buy a SLR... but that won't stop bill from buying a tavor... or it won't cause the tavor to drop in price...
Les's people buying them will mean less imported... and the exclusivity may mean higher prices for those interested.
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Wasn't there problems with piston guns having reliability issues cycling 300bo?
Looking at retail prices at us stores thats about the same price if not a little bit more and I mean by about 150-300 more than high end ars like dd or bcm or colt. same goes for the acr, granted that model is not the dmr model. but thats around the 1600 bucks. In case of daniel defense they are neck and neck for price with the tavor and augs. Here the x95 is 2499? whereas wolverine can get you a dd for 1955.
You could be right they might just bring less in and jack prices up higher still. Their loss. If they want to move as much you know it only makes sense to drop the prices if they want to maintain the sales.
Because before now there wasn't a real option to run a modular gun around the 2 grand pricepoint. Will there be die hard tavor fans? Of course, it's a bullpup that alone brings in its list of fanboys. Overall you know a lot of people will redirect to the SLR because
1) As you have seen in CGN a lot of people are very flavour of the month, they get distracted by the latest shiniest thing, and well, the tavor was yesterdays news with the slr on the block.
2) Well if you can have a NR AR why for less why not?
I disagree with Kidd X assesment on the swiss I don't think they care. They will stubbornly leave the price at 4 grand and once a blue moon someone will walk in and take one home. As for the famae that rage died 5 minutes into its arrival, I forgot it existed till I read the post. But I suspect tavor prices will drop. hopefully as does acr prices.
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Funny how the free market works eh? I was under the impression they were 100% against it, but once the BCL and SLR came out, it took no time before they told everyone about their receiver sets.
Before BCL and SLR, you can make a ton of money selling complete guns. Once these competitors came out, I bet the profit stream/potential evaporated overnight. Take the EE as an example, you see the same MH and MV sitting there forever, that should tell you something about the market direction.
Just my $0.02, I don’t mean to offend anyone. I’d buy a ATRS receiver set once they’re out, maybe two
It was possible to have cornered that market earlier. Someone posted earlier there were 800 pre-order for one store alone. That number was about 2 weeks ago and only grows henceforth.
