Maccabee Defense SLR information and updates

Scotty454 said:
I do occasionally watch machining YouTube videos. I also work full time as a machinist, and have been since 2004. Got my Journeyman ticket and red seal back in 2010.

If they are using quick change jaws, and those jaws are VITAL to their ability to produce parts, one would think that they would have their #### together and not run out of said jaws. It would be like me running out of inserts, and having no available alternative. Completely unacceptable, and it just can't/doesn't happen. Admittedly I run lathes almost exclusively, so I'm less familiar with milling workholding methods, but the premise is the same.
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They are a new start-up company just getting going. Sh*t happens. It's too bad there aren't more perfect machinist out there like you, then there would never be mistakes.

They ran out and ordered more. What more do you want them to do? Probably the biggest problem is no one stocks stuff anymore. Anytime I order anything from my local suppliers, it's always a week away. I started just going direct to the factory, sometimes getting it quicker.
 
Armedsask said:
They are a new start-up company just getting going. Sh*t happens. It's too bad there aren't more perfect machinist out there like you, then there would never be mistakes.

They ran out and ordered more. What more do you want them to do? Probably the biggest problem is no one stocks stuff anymore. Anytime I order anything from my local suppliers, it's always a week away. I started just going direct to the factory, sometimes getting it quicker.
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You get your kicks out of being a tw@t on the internet? I never said I was perfect. I just don't run out of the showstopper kind of items.

Maybe everything's always a week away for you because you're a d0uche?
 
Gatehouse said:
Finally you are cluing in to what the majority of us already knew when we put a $100 deposit down on these receivers. Or do a pre order on anything, really.

A handful of people like yourself feel the need to whine about what most of us already knew was going to happen. Anyone that has the slightest clue understood that MDI's ETAs were just guesses. They are small and never done anything like this before, so how the hell would they be able to accurately anticipate a timeline? Answer- they can't, but people are always demanding "updates and communications" like MDI is their personal contractor building them a house.

You can wail about the injustice of it all, or you can just use some common sense right from the start, understand that this will take a long time and just sit back and enjoy life until the products are ready when they are ready.



Actually, most of us don't need you to help us decide how to spend our money or how excited we should get. Laugh2
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What do you mean finally cluing in? Have you read anything I've written?
I figured this idiotic pre-order chit way back which is why I refuse to participate in them. The part I don't like is the manufacturers/importers/retailers sell a concept for the most part and say estimated delivery in 6 months. They take peoples money then a year later the customer is still twirling in the wind wondering when their product will show while the importer/manufacturer says they got delayed and that they'll be there when they get there and stop communications. The minority like you and Armedsask seem to be ok with ths but to me it's terrible customer service. If you pay me to import a car for you are you ok with me telling you it will be on your driveway in two weeks then four months later when you call to find out where your car is I tell you it's none of your business and it will be there when I get around to dropping it off?

So they're a new small company, so what. That doesn't give them a free pass to sell a concept and give an estimated delivery date then be 6 months behind with no delivery date in sight and no explanation to their customers. Is this their first time doing any machining?
As has been said they have a few complete rifles in existence so they should know exactly what they need to do and how long it will take to build however many are going to be in the first delivery.
And if they've already built some complete rifles why do they need new tools? Didn't they need those jaws to build the previous ones.

And I'm not whining and I don't take other people's comments as whining, these are legitimate questions to the manufacturer who chooses to ignore their customers.

And when did I ever tell people how excited to get? I think you're getting a little too eager to try to make a smart ass comment and suck up to MDI that you're coming off kinda ignorant.
People are free to spend their money however they want, I'm just pointing out that if you pay in advance for a product without ever seeing it or without a reasonable delivery date you're encouraging this type of chit customer service and stupid excuses for delays. If people waited till the product was built before paying things would happen a lot faster.
 
I agree. I paid for this in full last March and assumed it was in CDN Gunworx hands. I’ve not received one update from them and only get responses when I email them... a few days after. This is ridiculous. Be glad that most of you only paid a deposit. The way I look at it CDN Gunworx should be paying me interest.
 
skooch said:
I agree. I paid for this in full last March and assumed it was in CDN Gunworx hands
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So it's their fault you didn't know what you were paying for?

I vehemently appose pre-orders for this very reason. You get people who don't understand what they are paying for. Nothing wrong with paying a deposit to reserve place in line. I never do it, but it's not as big an issue.
 
cr5 said:
What do you mean finally cluing in? Have you read anything I've written?
I figured this idiotic pre-order chit way back which is why I refuse to participate in them. The part I don't like is the manufacturers/importers/retailers sell a concept for the most part and say estimated delivery in 6 months. They take peoples money then a year later the customer is still twirling in the wind wondering when their product will show while the importer/manufacturer says they got delayed and that they'll be there when they get there and stop communications. The minority like you and Armedsask seem to be ok with ths but to me it's terrible customer service. If you pay me to import a car for you are you ok with me telling you it will be on your driveway in two weeks then four months later when you call to find out where your car is I tell you it's none of your business and it will be there when I get around to dropping it off?

Again, only a fool pays in full, a deposit is chump change and merely holds a place in line.
So they're a new small company, so what. That doesn't give them a free pass to sell a concept and give an estimated delivery date then be 6 months behind with no delivery date in sight and no explanation to their customers. Is this their first time doing any machining?
As has been said they have a few complete rifles in existence so they should know exactly what they need to do and how long it will take to build however many are going to be in the first delivery.
And if they've already built some complete rifles why do they need new tools? Didn't they need those jaws to build the previous ones.
When you're a small company and the initial pre orders overwhelm your capacity to produce product, delays will result. Tools wear out and/or break, that's why you need more. Some sources say their intial pre orders number in the thousands(plural). Making that many sets in a timely fashion requires a lot of material, man hours and machines. I don't think MDI is a large company with dozens of machines.
And I'm not whining and I don't take other people's comments as whining, these are legitimate questions to the manufacturer who chooses to ignore their customers.
Again, not a customer, you paid a deposit with a DEALER not with MDI. They owe answers to dealers not individuals.
And when did I ever tell people how excited to get? I think you're getting a little too eager to try to make a smart ass comment and suck up to MDI that you're coming off kinda ignorant.You stated that MDI puts out unrealistic ETA's which gets everyone excited then moves the timeline. You're attempting to speak for others.
People are free to spend their money however they want, I'm just pointing out that if you pay in advance for a product without ever seeing it or without a reasonable delivery date you're encouraging this type of chit customer service and stupid excuses for delays. If people waited till the product was built before paying things would happen a lot faster.
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And again.... Only a fool paid in full and many of us have in fact seen, handled and fired the SLR rifle. Apparently the insane cost of production and the FRT process is lost on many. It's expensive and time consuming. Waste high 6 figures setting up and getting an FRT only to have people whine about the price and not buy your product is a one time deal. MDI got the design done, got it approved, then sought the public interest before production. A smart way to do business.
skooch said:
I agree. I paid for this in full last March and assumed it was in CDN Gunworx hands. I’ve not received one update from them and only get responses when I email them... a few days after. This is ridiculous. Be glad that most of you only paid a deposit. The way I look at it CDN Gunworx should be paying me interest.
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Sorry to hear. Paying in full is insane, but vendors wouldn't ask for full payment if people stopped doing it.
 
Kidd X said:
And again.... Only a fool paid in full and many of us have in fact seen, handled and fired the SLR rifle. Apparently the insane cost of production and the FRT process is lost on many. It's expensive and time consuming. Waste high 6 figures setting up and getting an FRT only to have people whine about the price and not buy your product is a one time deal. MDI got the design done, got it approved, then sought the public interest before production. A smart way to do business.
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So they got overwhelmed with orders, that's every companies dream isn't it? Why doesn't anyone have one in hand then? Can't they build a couple hundred then ship them and then make another batch and ship and so on? Waiting till they have one built for every order before shipping is stupid and since they are using some fantastic quick change thingys (I'm not a machinist obviously) why don't they have any finished products for their customers?
They should be operating like ATRS does (another fairly small company) if they got more orders than they were expecting, build small batches and get them into customers hands as quickly as possible not just sit on them until they feel like finishing and shipping them. Tools break, I get that but if it's my business to build products then I'm going to have a few spare parts on hand so that I don't have to shut down production if something breaks.

Again, I have no deposit on one and I won't be buying one. I do have friends on the list though and will be assisting with assembly when they arrive. I personally don't really care much how this turns out, I just think it's bad business to not communicate with your customers and since they were posting on twitter and facebook I guess they realize that the consumer is their customer and not just the retailers.
 
My whole take on this thing is as follows. Mainly gleamed from their early instagram posts and the couple of prototypes I have handled. And general internet hearsay.


Macdef had a decent idea, but they really didn't have much experience with AR's. I remember one of their first posts on Instagram saying they were going to offer it the rifle in 13 different calibers!!! lol The negatives of their design have been beaten to death, so I don't have to go over that.

Regarding production my guess is they were going to get some machine shop to make them. For whatever reason they decided they would have to set up their own machine shop and do it all themselves. My guess is they had little to no machine shop experience, just based on how they designed the lower/upper. And now we are waiting around while they figure out how to go from a bunch of pre-orders to becoming a actual production company. If they had to buy all their own equipment, I bet they will have trouble breaking even with all the pre-orders.
 
mileageman said:
My whole take on this thing is as follows. Mainly gleamed from their early instagram posts and the couple of prototypes I have handled. And general internet hearsay.


Macdef had a decent idea, but they really didn't have much experience with AR's. I remember one of their first posts on Instagram saying they were going to offer it the rifle in 13 different calibers!!! lol The negatives of their design have been beaten to death, so I don't have to go over that.

Regarding production my guess is they were going to get some machine shop to make them. For whatever reason they decided they would have to set up their own machine shop and do it all themselves. My guess is they had little to no machine shop experience, just based on how they designed the lower/upper. And now we are waiting around while they figure out how to go from a bunch of pre-orders to becoming a actual production company. If they had to buy all their own equipment, I bet they will have trouble breaking even with all the pre-orders.
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This pretty much sums it up.

My initial thoughts when I first seen the SLR design were that, due to the design complexities, this would be a highly ambitious undertaking for a novice company.

As much as I'm not happy with it taking so long I'm only in for a hundred bucks each for two receivers. I'll keep my pre-orders and continue to support them.

I'm sure this project has presented MacDef with a sharper learning curve than even they expected.
 
Armedsask said:
So it's their fault you didn't know what you were paying for?

I vehemently appose pre-orders for this very reason. You get people who don't understand what they are paying for. Nothing wrong with paying a deposit to reserve place in line. I never do it, but it's not as big an issue.
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I know what I paid for. However, when they contacted me for full payment I was told the sets were inbound and I assumed I would receive the set in a few weeks. Had I known it would be another 6 months I would have pushed back on the full payment.
 
skooch said:
I know what I paid for. However, when they contacted me for full payment I was told the sets were inbound and I assumed I would receive the set in a few weeks. Had I known it would be another 6 months I would have pushed back on the full payment.
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In that case, you have a valid complaint with the dealer.
 
cr5 said:
What do you mean finally cluing in? Have you read anything I've written?
I figured this idiotic pre-order chit way back which is why I refuse to participate in them. The part I don't like is the manufacturers/importers/retailers sell a concept for the most part and say estimated delivery in 6 months. They take peoples money then a year later the customer is still twirling in the wind wondering when their product will show while the importer/manufacturer says they got delayed and that they'll be there when they get there and stop communications. The minority like you and Armedsask seem to be ok with ths but to me it's terrible customer service. If you pay me to import a car for you are you ok with me telling you it will be on your driveway in two weeks then four months later when you call to find out where your car is I tell you it's none of your business and it will be there when I get around to dropping it off?

So they're a new small company, so what. That doesn't give them a free pass to sell a concept and give an estimated delivery date then be 6 months behind with no delivery date in sight and no explanation to their customers. Is this their first time doing any machining?
As has been said they have a few complete rifles in existence so they should know exactly what they need to do and how long it will take to build however many are going to be in the first delivery.
And if they've already built some complete rifles why do they need new tools? Didn't they need those jaws to build the previous ones.

And I'm not whining and I don't take other people's comments as whining, these are legitimate questions to the manufacturer who chooses to ignore their customers.

And when did I ever tell people how excited to get? I think you're getting a little too eager to try to make a smart ass comment and suck up to MDI that you're coming off kinda ignorant.
People are free to spend their money however they want, I'm just pointing out that if you pay in advance for a product without ever seeing it or without a reasonable delivery date you're encouraging this type of chit customer service and stupid excuses for delays. If people waited till the product was built before paying things would happen a lot faster.
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I guess you didn't actually clue in. Here, I will sum it up for you as simply as I can. It's good advice for anyone contemplating a pre order or putting a deposit on any new to market product :


Go into it with your eyes wide open.

Regardless of what the dealer, manufacturer or importer tells you for a timeline, multiply that by 10.

Don't put up cash if you aren't comfortable with it being tied up for a lengthy period of time.


I don't care what company it is. If you don't/won't recognize these things, then frankly, you are quite foolish.


Personally, I looked at this item, decided I wanted it, noted that it was only $100 deposit to get in the line and decided it was worth it. I won't be whining about the timeline because I already went into it with my eyes open. Other products I may see differently and choose not to participate.

In this case, all I care about is receiving a quality product. I really don't care if it takes another 6 months as long as it's good. And I don't care about the timeline because....well, see above.
 
Gatehouse said:
I guess you didn't actually clue in. Here, I will sum it up for you as simply as I can. It's good advice for anyone contemplating a pre order or putting a deposit on any new to market product :


Go into it with your eyes wide open.

Regardless of what the dealer, manufacturer or importer tells you for a timeline, multiply that by 10.

Don't put up cash if you aren't comfortable with it being tied up for a lengthy period of time.


I don't care what company it is. If you don't/won't recognize these things, then frankly, you are quite foolish.


Personally, I looked at this item, decided I wanted it, noted that it was only $100 deposit to get in the line and decided it was worth it. I won't be whining about the timeline because I already went into it with my eyes open. Other products I may see differently and choose not to participate.

In this case, all I care about is receiving a quality product. I really don't care if it takes another 6 months as long as it's good. And I don't care about the timeline because....well, see above.
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I think most are at least hoping these are delivered before C-71 goes through.

Honestly though, why should anyone have to multilply the the timeline given by the manufacturer or importer by a factor of 10? That is just chitty business and irresponsible on their part to give people hope then let them down. No wonder so many are mad.

I agree with you and you are 100% correct that this is how it is and no one should be surprised by the delays but if people would stop putting up with this kind of crap and hold people accountable then maybe we would only need to double the timeline provided. Either way, I take people for their word and if they say 6 months and it takes 24 months then they are liars and not worth spending my money on. This is my opinion of any company that does this, not picking on MDI specifically.
Just because this is the way it is doesn't make it right and only the consumer can hold them accountable. As much as I'd love to see another Canadian manufacturer making quality products, if one has to go under to show the rest that we expect them to deliver what they say they will when they say they will deliver it then so be it.

I hope everyone gets a quality product but if these guys are new to the industry, don't have enough equipment to produce the products they promised in a reasonable amount of time and are way behind the timelines I worry quality is going to suffer as they try to rush through and fill orders once they get their fancy soft jaws and start making parts again.

Time will tell, good luck to all involved.
 
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I have been getting sick of the preorders and so far have been lucky but feel bad for people who are waiting for their product only to see some on the ee or dealers have them in stock and ready for sale. With the m10x and wk180c I got them long before many who preordered.
 
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