machining your own
- Thread starter tony m
- Start date
CNC lathes? What's a Cvc lathe mill?
Most of the guys that try it quit pretty fast. Holding the required tolerances, and keeping the machines cutting at them, is non-trivial. Issues like error compensation in the control, and temperature compensation, are a really big deal.
It looks like it should be easy, but it isn't so much.
Cheers
Trev
Most of the guys that try it quit pretty fast. Holding the required tolerances, and keeping the machines cutting at them, is non-trivial. Issues like error compensation in the control, and temperature compensation, are a really big deal.
It looks like it should be easy, but it isn't so much.
Cheers
Trev
I've seen an old boss of mine was doing a run of bronze bullets for his russian anti tank gun, a ptrs-41 I beleive, chances are he's a gunnut and may chime in. And I've done a few runs of pure copper slugs for some friends who had interest back when I had access to the equipment.
Error compensation is accomplished by altering the offsets in your program and temperature compensation is a fancy word for "turn the coolant on". But you'l forever be tinkering with your programs trying different shapes unless you have a proven profile and dimensioned drawings to go from. A used CNC lathe and even some of the small new ones can be had for reasonable prices if you know what to look for and you can input your codes manually if you know how to input "g code".
If you want to "draw" your bullet on a CAM program they tend to be pretty expensive, but it allows you to see the shape you're making as you go, plan the tool paths, machine functions and will automatically convert the CAM drawing into a useable G code.
Before you take the plunge take a serious look at the cost of bronze/copper and factor in your electricity, time, cost of machinery, cost of CAM programs and cost of carbide inserts/coolant and decide if you're really ready to take the plunge to make the few thousand bullets you'l shoot in your lifetime. Once you factor that in you're bullet cost becomes pretty substantial.
If you have the make your own bullet bug and dont want to cast, you can look into Corbin Swaging and get a premium setup to make copper jacketed slugs that will cost less, take up just as much of your tinkering time, way less learning curve if you have no machining experience and your equipment wont depreciate as much or become obselete and near worthless should you try to sell it.
Error compensation is accomplished by altering the offsets in your program and temperature compensation is a fancy word for "turn the coolant on". But you'l forever be tinkering with your programs trying different shapes unless you have a proven profile and dimensioned drawings to go from. A used CNC lathe and even some of the small new ones can be had for reasonable prices if you know what to look for and you can input your codes manually if you know how to input "g code".
If you want to "draw" your bullet on a CAM program they tend to be pretty expensive, but it allows you to see the shape you're making as you go, plan the tool paths, machine functions and will automatically convert the CAM drawing into a useable G code.
Before you take the plunge take a serious look at the cost of bronze/copper and factor in your electricity, time, cost of machinery, cost of CAM programs and cost of carbide inserts/coolant and decide if you're really ready to take the plunge to make the few thousand bullets you'l shoot in your lifetime. Once you factor that in you're bullet cost becomes pretty substantial.
If you have the make your own bullet bug and dont want to cast, you can look into Corbin Swaging and get a premium setup to make copper jacketed slugs that will cost less, take up just as much of your tinkering time, way less learning curve if you have no machining experience and your equipment wont depreciate as much or become obselete and near worthless should you try to sell it.
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Having experience with machining plenty of copper at work, i can chime in. To hold the tolerances you'd need and complete them in a reasonable amount of time you would want carbide tooling and a GOOD cnc lathe. Problem is that you are looking at north of $50k for that setup. Best to farm out the work to a job shop. Keep in mind though that copper is very expensive compared to most materials and that it is very abrasive, resulting in a lot of tool wear and thus a lot of attention required by the operator to keep things in check and cutting on size.
Not sure what rates are like where you are but i believe machine time around here goes for about $60-$100 an hour or more, plus material. A bullet should be machinable in about 45 seconds if setup properly so do the math from there. Also factor in setup time too so for only 50 bullets not worth it but 1000, then the price comes down quite a bit.
Hope that helps and doesn't discourage you too much. Being a machinist, i get asked a lot about how long it would cost to do some jobs and people are shocked at what one part can cost. Just have to remember that if you can but something off the shelf it has likely been made in the thousands so the cost is spread out more.
Not sure what rates are like where you are but i believe machine time around here goes for about $60-$100 an hour or more, plus material. A bullet should be machinable in about 45 seconds if setup properly so do the math from there. Also factor in setup time too so for only 50 bullets not worth it but 1000, then the price comes down quite a bit.
Hope that helps and doesn't discourage you too much. Being a machinist, i get asked a lot about how long it would cost to do some jobs and people are shocked at what one part can cost. Just have to remember that if you can but something off the shelf it has likely been made in the thousands so the cost is spread out more.
When I was a kid, I made a nice .451 bullet once whittling away on a piece of ash on the front porch. Took awhile. Wasn't perfect but I thought I would load it up and see what it would do out of my dad's 1911. Things you do eh? Anyway, never got the chance...the dog ate it...and I wasn't interested enough to "recover" it. 
Let us know how far you get with this...oh ya...keep the dog away
Let us know how far you get with this...oh ya...keep the dog away
"Error compensation is accomplished by altering the offsets in your program and temperature compensation is a fancy word for "turn the coolant on".
Geez, hickstick_10, are you a welder by trade? 'Cause that sounds a lot more like a welder rather than a machinist.
Error compensation is programmed in to the control to allow the control to track the differences caused by wear, manufacturing tolerance differences in the ball screws and generally allows the control to adjust for those. Most controls these days have a chance to input this info. If the guy doing it has the ability to measure it.
Temperature compensation changes those errors, in the control, in respect to the ambient temperature, esp when the machine starts from cold, allowing the control to compensate for the differences in expansion, of the various materials and parts that are between the spindle and the tool holders. The bed, the ways, the ball screws etc, all change a bit when the temperature changes. Your parts size changes when the machine warms up. Typically a warm-up routine would be done before a parts run, if the tolerances were tight. If you want to hit tenths with any regularity (the same tenths as the previous one, eh?) you pretty much need to keep a lid on ALL the variables. Non-trivial!
Short version is, if you want your carefully machined bullets, of expensive copper bar stock to come out near the same size as they did at the end of the previous day's dinking around with offsets and changes to the G-Code, you had better pay some close attention to the Error Tables in the control, as well as being aware of the individual machine's temperature comp changes, if it is not done in the control.
If you (the OP) want cheap bullets, this is not the way to get them. Copper slugs for the 12 gauge though, may well be within the capabilities of a manual machinist in a home shop environment. Gonna depend on what you want out of them.Cheap? Not a fricking chance!
Cheers
Trev
Geez, hickstick_10, are you a welder by trade? 'Cause that sounds a lot more like a welder rather than a machinist.
Error compensation is programmed in to the control to allow the control to track the differences caused by wear, manufacturing tolerance differences in the ball screws and generally allows the control to adjust for those. Most controls these days have a chance to input this info. If the guy doing it has the ability to measure it.
Temperature compensation changes those errors, in the control, in respect to the ambient temperature, esp when the machine starts from cold, allowing the control to compensate for the differences in expansion, of the various materials and parts that are between the spindle and the tool holders. The bed, the ways, the ball screws etc, all change a bit when the temperature changes. Your parts size changes when the machine warms up. Typically a warm-up routine would be done before a parts run, if the tolerances were tight. If you want to hit tenths with any regularity (the same tenths as the previous one, eh?) you pretty much need to keep a lid on ALL the variables. Non-trivial!
Short version is, if you want your carefully machined bullets, of expensive copper bar stock to come out near the same size as they did at the end of the previous day's dinking around with offsets and changes to the G-Code, you had better pay some close attention to the Error Tables in the control, as well as being aware of the individual machine's temperature comp changes, if it is not done in the control.
If you (the OP) want cheap bullets, this is not the way to get them. Copper slugs for the 12 gauge though, may well be within the capabilities of a manual machinist in a home shop environment. Gonna depend on what you want out of them.Cheap? Not a fricking chance!
Cheers
Trev
"Error compensation is accomplished by altering the offsets in your program and temperature compensation is a fancy word for "turn the coolant on".
Geez, hickstick_10, are you a welder by trade? 'Cause that sounds a lot more like a welder rather than a machinist.
Error compensation is programmed in to the control to allow the control to track the differences caused by wear, manufacturing tolerance differences in the ball screws and generally allows the control to adjust for those. Most controls these days have a chance to input this info. If the guy doing it has the ability to measure it.
I are no weldar!!! I dont have a pony tail, metal mulisha products or a criminal record which only the true welder posseses. I dont often post in machining threads on gun forums for the very reason theres so much posturing over whos a machinist and all the misinformation, but yes Im a red seal journeyman and have been for some time, the copper "slugs" I made were mostly for 45-70 guys trying to come up with a new stomper bullet. Your big words you're using mean "keep an eye on your tool/wear offsets, alter as needed".
Stop sandbagging the job and try to help the guy, your worse then my mechanic.
Warm up cycle is a fancy word for "let the spindle run for a few minutes and move the slides around"
you may find that the temperature gradient at the chip flow interface will increase as the friction coefficient rises, in order to combat this be sure to stop the cycle, disengage the locking cam on the tool holder and index your cutting inserts by the amount specified by its manufacture, this is not a trivial manufacturing step, failure to do so will cause the copper with a high expansion rate to significantly expand during the thermal cycle and contract when the ambient temperature changes. I am a real machinist, I know these thingsWhich is the sandbagged equivalent to................
Be sure you have a sharp edge on your insert.
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I are no weldar!!!
Be sure you have a sharp edge on your insert.
Lol! You went and looked up a bunch of big words. Good on yer!
Might make a welder out of you some day, if you study.The real short version is that it's easy to make one, when you need one. Making a 100 the same, not so much. Seems like a great idea, until you actually have to do it.
I'll put a x2 in on the swaging dies suggestion, or get in to casting if that don't suit.
But thermal and error comps are control features, then you get to also deal with tools and tool wear, and tool/holder repeatability. I figured a red seal ought to have a pretty good handle on that, but I guess not.
It ain't actually as easy as load stock and push a button, otherwise the 7-11 clerk would be responsible for monitoring a batch of mills and lathes between Slurpee sales. Not that machinists are getting treated much better than 7-11 clerks, if what the guys are telling me is to be believed.
Sandbagging? Not at all. It's not a project that guy with a CNC converted mini-lathe, let alone a manual lathe, is going to pull off without some performance bordering upon being gifted. No point in sending some poor sap down the path without fair warning just to sit and watch him fail. I'd rather see the guy build skills with success, rather than corner himself on starting out with a project that has tolerances beyond most home shop guys capabilities.
Rather burst his balloon up front than see him waste his time.
And on the Mechanic, whose the dumb one, if you keep going back to him, really?
Chuck yer seal a fish and give him a pat on the head for me eh.
Cheers
Trev
Sandbaggers gonna sandbag.
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Man you must have spent a long bitter career surrounded by losers to come up with such wit. Nice job on the edit inside the quotes above. If the shoe fits ya, ya may as well wear it. Looks good on ya.
If that's your best, it ain't very good. You a better machinist than that?
Maybe it's just that you cannot understand it, that makes you want to call folks names when they explain stuff that they are actually interested in. That may explain why you call your mechanic names, but keep going back to him too. I wonder if he charges you an A-Hole Tax.
Oh yeah. You should look that word up. I'm starting to believe that it means something different to you than it does to everyone else. Otherwise, you would seem to be paying me a compliment, which, given the context and yer tantrum, I'm thinking maybe not.
Now, back on topic...
Put the right lathe, in the right hands (not mine, BTW), and it can be done, but like as not, not for the kind of money that will allow the maker to make wages, plus profit, plus overhead, plus allow the retailer to make something, all while selling at a price that the buyers will pay. Not for any caliber that has any level of off the shelf availability anyway.
There is at least one outfit making turned bullets for the big calibers, BMG, Chey-Tac and such, that P&D is/was selling. Check with them. Last I looked it was a box of 20, and 20 primers, for a bit less than $100. ~$80 rings a bell. A bud and I looked into it a bit, a while back. We couldn't afford it.
Non-trivial pursuits. More and easier money in making things with lower tolerance callouts and easier customers. Take a drawing with a plus or minus two tenths of a thou tolerance in to a job shop and see what that gets you. My nickel is on "laughter", followed by a quote that will make you wish you were spending Government money.
Cheers
Trev
Im not tantruming Trev and I dont mind the debate, but when one guy starts calling me a weldar (*shudders*) and can't deal with people questioning his position I tend to think he might not have as strong of a grasp on the process as he claims. It happens all the time in shops, its normal and I dont take it personally. But please................call me fat, retarded, inbred or smelly before you call me a welder or I may start cutting myself. 
I'd rather look at how the job CAN be done rather then the fuss and feathers approach why it can't be done. I've done it and I've seen others do it along with the programming and the equipment. I will admit that the bullets I made and my boss made probably wouldn't cut the mustard with the benchrest 1000 yard guys. The lathe was a tiny old slant bed that was used to make down hole tooling and it kept its sizes within a half thou (+- 0.00025) as long as everything had a good flood of coolant, the appopriate inserts were used, a sensible finish cut was programmed and a guy kept on top of his offsets. A couple were screwed up at the start but most were fine. Could our bullets be better? Of course they could and theres room for improvement if I ever try again. All I know is they shot fine.
Plus or minus 2 tenths is alot of bearing/press fits and is approximately a g6 or h6 tolerance for sizes around 12 mm, which most machine shops have to be able to reach that or its not going to stay in business long. Crack a Machinerys Handbook if you think Im lying.
I see the drawings with the fits all the time, and they dont amount to a license to steal unless I was as good a sandbagger (to me it means making something appear tougher then it is) as my mechanic. He does good work, but I'm very suspicious that he's drunk some good scotch at my expense.
But enough of my shady mechanic and depressing thoughts of welding. Trev if you need to add one more jab to get the last word, you give 'er and I wont remonstrate. Or you can share how you would pull this job off and what sort of machinery you think you'd require. If you have a better idea then share it cause me and the OP would like to hear it.
We dont know what the OPs budget is, but a man does not require 50 grand to pull this off. Theres some of those chucker or hardinge knockoffs that are factory fitted to run cnc, that can be purchased used for the price of a new ATV. And if a guy had a setup like that he'd be miles ahead of what I used. Good collets, 2 or 3 tool holders and man could crank out some good bullets.
Hey tony m, whats your budget??
I'd rather look at how the job CAN be done rather then the fuss and feathers approach why it can't be done. I've done it and I've seen others do it along with the programming and the equipment. I will admit that the bullets I made and my boss made probably wouldn't cut the mustard with the benchrest 1000 yard guys. The lathe was a tiny old slant bed that was used to make down hole tooling and it kept its sizes within a half thou (+- 0.00025) as long as everything had a good flood of coolant, the appopriate inserts were used, a sensible finish cut was programmed and a guy kept on top of his offsets. A couple were screwed up at the start but most were fine. Could our bullets be better? Of course they could and theres room for improvement if I ever try again. All I know is they shot fine.
Plus or minus 2 tenths is alot of bearing/press fits and is approximately a g6 or h6 tolerance for sizes around 12 mm, which most machine shops have to be able to reach that or its not going to stay in business long. Crack a Machinerys Handbook if you think Im lying.
I see the drawings with the fits all the time, and they dont amount to a license to steal unless I was as good a sandbagger (to me it means making something appear tougher then it is) as my mechanic. He does good work, but I'm very suspicious that he's drunk some good scotch at my expense.
But enough of my shady mechanic and depressing thoughts of welding. Trev if you need to add one more jab to get the last word, you give 'er and I wont remonstrate. Or you can share how you would pull this job off and what sort of machinery you think you'd require. If you have a better idea then share it cause me and the OP would like to hear it.
We dont know what the OPs budget is, but a man does not require 50 grand to pull this off. Theres some of those chucker or hardinge knockoffs that are factory fitted to run cnc, that can be purchased used for the price of a new ATV. And if a guy had a setup like that he'd be miles ahead of what I used. Good collets, 2 or 3 tool holders and man could crank out some good bullets.
Hey tony m, whats your budget??
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Funny you mention a converted hardinge. We retired one at work a few years ago that was running a very simple control(cannot remember the name) butit put in stellar duty. In the time I was there, it probably ran north of 1.5 million cycles with minimal maintenance and always held at least .0002 consistently. We bought it for about 5grand and sold it for just above scrap value 6 years later.
So there are machines out there, the aforementioned machine was a hardinge centroid chnc.
If he wants to get into real production, a hardinge gangtool series or swiss turn would be something to set up a business around.
So there are machines out there, the aforementioned machine was a hardinge centroid chnc.
If he wants to get into real production, a hardinge gangtool series or swiss turn would be something to set up a business around.
Yeah you are, dude.
Tantrum like a spoiled child. How many jobs has that cost you?
I'd not be surprised if your mechanic includes the cost of a bottle of really good stuff into every bill he gives you. Maybe two.
Must really suck to see a kid with a welding ticket float in and make the kind of money they do, eh? But do you see a lot of old welders around? Not so much. It's like the Infantry, young fellas game, IMO.
Now, back to the show again. To a fella that wanted to make bullets on a lathe, getting the diameters the same is non-trivial. If you have the machinery and skills (or an operator in your shop with them) you are going to have to consider who you are selling to.
Target shooters. Guys that sort their bullets by weight, and their powder charges by tenths of a grain, are not going to buy a second box of bullets that vary by several tenths of a thou either way from the target diameter or many tenths of a grain weight. This is another advantage to the swaging dies route. Once the guy on the chair in front of the press is tuned up, and doing all his op's the same through the run, he gets a batch of bullets that are close to being indistinguishable from each other by measuring or weighing.
The guys that want monolithic solids for their big game rifles, pretty much fall into the same category as the target shooters, as far as their expectations when buying a premium priced product.
Guys that are buying these premium bullets want as good as can be got, not 'as good as the stuff at the store'.
I would say that there IS an opportunity to be providing some of the biggest bore size guys some bullets fit to go make some noise at the range. Hickstick's mentioned PTRS is one really good example, there are a few guys that want to get their 20mm's shooting too, but you would be making beer money, not a living off the stuff, IMO. Not because the price for the goods would not be worth it, but because there are so few potential customers. From a costing standpoint, for the 20mm, and such, I would be chasing essentially a machined 'jacket' of either a free machining mild steel or bronze, and build an appropriate mold to hold that jacket in to fill the center with lead. The system used in making the ammo now is essentially to swage a bronze driving band in to a groove on a steel jacket. Problematic in a home shop, and most machine shops. Not that it cannot be done, but that the equipment is not usually around to do it with. A fella 'might' be able to pull it off with a set of dies in a hose crimping machine, if they had one. Really slowly, in a hydraulic press. Another option would be to bring in bronze tube stock, and make essentially a bushing and press it on to the base of the (steel, inexpensive)bullet, then machine driving bands on that. Tube costs more, but the amount of scrap bronze in the bin would be less.
If you got something to say or add to this, beside to act childish and call me names which may not actually mean what you think they do, hickstick, I'm all ears. I have actually put a bunch of time in researching this and looking at the options, and found it not worth pursuing for my needs, and uneconomical.
The best cure for the ambition for a home shop guy, is to buy $10 worth of copper rod stock and the same in bronze, and have a go at it. Buy enough stock to make, say, ten or so, sit down and give it a run.
Get a decent tenths reading micrometer and go through a box of commercial bullets and see what they are running for consistency. Weigh them an a good scale too. Try to match that for your goal. Good luck! Yer gonna have to be 'on your game' to pull off decent results. Not impossible, but a bit of a SOB to do a decent job of. Unless, of course, you think that marking it with a soapstone crayon, and cutting it with a torch, is "accuracy".
Cheers
Trev
Tantrum like a spoiled child. How many jobs has that cost you?
I'd not be surprised if your mechanic includes the cost of a bottle of really good stuff into every bill he gives you. Maybe two.
Must really suck to see a kid with a welding ticket float in and make the kind of money they do, eh? But do you see a lot of old welders around? Not so much. It's like the Infantry, young fellas game, IMO.
Now, back to the show again. To a fella that wanted to make bullets on a lathe, getting the diameters the same is non-trivial. If you have the machinery and skills (or an operator in your shop with them) you are going to have to consider who you are selling to.
Target shooters. Guys that sort their bullets by weight, and their powder charges by tenths of a grain, are not going to buy a second box of bullets that vary by several tenths of a thou either way from the target diameter or many tenths of a grain weight. This is another advantage to the swaging dies route. Once the guy on the chair in front of the press is tuned up, and doing all his op's the same through the run, he gets a batch of bullets that are close to being indistinguishable from each other by measuring or weighing.
The guys that want monolithic solids for their big game rifles, pretty much fall into the same category as the target shooters, as far as their expectations when buying a premium priced product.
Guys that are buying these premium bullets want as good as can be got, not 'as good as the stuff at the store'.
I would say that there IS an opportunity to be providing some of the biggest bore size guys some bullets fit to go make some noise at the range. Hickstick's mentioned PTRS is one really good example, there are a few guys that want to get their 20mm's shooting too, but you would be making beer money, not a living off the stuff, IMO. Not because the price for the goods would not be worth it, but because there are so few potential customers. From a costing standpoint, for the 20mm, and such, I would be chasing essentially a machined 'jacket' of either a free machining mild steel or bronze, and build an appropriate mold to hold that jacket in to fill the center with lead. The system used in making the ammo now is essentially to swage a bronze driving band in to a groove on a steel jacket. Problematic in a home shop, and most machine shops. Not that it cannot be done, but that the equipment is not usually around to do it with. A fella 'might' be able to pull it off with a set of dies in a hose crimping machine, if they had one. Really slowly, in a hydraulic press. Another option would be to bring in bronze tube stock, and make essentially a bushing and press it on to the base of the (steel, inexpensive)bullet, then machine driving bands on that. Tube costs more, but the amount of scrap bronze in the bin would be less.
If you got something to say or add to this, beside to act childish and call me names which may not actually mean what you think they do, hickstick, I'm all ears. I have actually put a bunch of time in researching this and looking at the options, and found it not worth pursuing for my needs, and uneconomical.
The best cure for the ambition for a home shop guy, is to buy $10 worth of copper rod stock and the same in bronze, and have a go at it. Buy enough stock to make, say, ten or so, sit down and give it a run.
Get a decent tenths reading micrometer and go through a box of commercial bullets and see what they are running for consistency. Weigh them an a good scale too. Try to match that for your goal. Good luck! Yer gonna have to be 'on your game' to pull off decent results. Not impossible, but a bit of a SOB to do a decent job of. Unless, of course, you think that marking it with a soapstone crayon, and cutting it with a torch, is "accuracy".
Cheers
Trev
^^^^Take a beta blocker^^^
What kind of pills are you hoping to make? And what province are you in, because that will have a big affect on the price of used equipment if your looking to make them yourself.
Or were you planning to farm the work out?
What kind of pills are you hoping to make? And what province are you in, because that will have a big affect on the price of used equipment if your looking to make them yourself.
Or were you planning to farm the work out?
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I really do wish I was in a position to jump on a couple of the Hardinge Super Precision's that I saw for sale a couple years back, when you pretty much couldn't sell a machine, let alone an old one. At $1500 and trucking, they looked like a bloody great start to this sort of project, and would be able to run these tolerances pretty well, IMO. Similar machines (if not the same ones) are selling in the $5-6K range with sketchy controls now that things are rolling along a bit more in the US industrial sector. There are a couple outfits that do essentially bolt-on CNC control kits for these and similar machines. Centroid is one, Omni-Turn is another that is fairly common.
My personal SOP is to buy cheap, take a risk vs. reward die roll on getting a deal, learn what I can about it and fix it, and go from there. I don't have to eat, based on income from my hobbies, though.
We were looking for a stable-mate for a Schaublin 150 a few years back, for the Military shop I worked in, and were looking hard at a Cyclematic 618, a Hardinge HLV-H clone that has a pretty good reputation. Was ~$20K new for the manual version at that time. They sell a fairly plain jane CNC version, and it would be pretty high on the list of machines I would start looking at. Closed in, feeder capable, and preferably with some probing capability, both for the tools and the parts, if I really wanted to go all in with production. Dreams of other people's money! Easy to spend a bunch!
How would I go about it? I go to the store, stock up when the stock is there, and carry on with my life. Easy, no? Much like building one's own rifle barrel, it falls into the category of things I don't need to do to know that I cannot afford to do them.
Cheers
Trev
Explain. Or is that just another thing you may not actually understand?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_blocker
Cheer
Trev
^click on the fight or flight response of that article and read up on the cognitive and emotional components, you're displaying most of them^
But its nice to see you agree with me on something! If the OP's anywhere in Ontario, especially around Windsor he might be able to scrap up a pretty good deal. The used prices for machinery here in Western Canada have no comparison to what gear sells for in the East. It might even be worth a flight to buy it and bring it back in a rented u-haul, I did it once for a machine in Manitoba and drove it back to Edmonton, saved 4-5k over the used prices here easily.
But if wasn't a gently used HLVH clone, I'd definately want to see it run under power first.
But its nice to see you agree with me on something! If the OP's anywhere in Ontario, especially around Windsor he might be able to scrap up a pretty good deal. The used prices for machinery here in Western Canada have no comparison to what gear sells for in the East. It might even be worth a flight to buy it and bring it back in a rented u-haul, I did it once for a machine in Manitoba and drove it back to Edmonton, saved 4-5k over the used prices here easily.
But if wasn't a gently used HLVH clone, I'd definately want to see it run under power first.
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I'm not a complete bloody contrary SOB. But partial, often enough.
Ayup. Bearings for the Hardinge and clones are a bunch of money. Difficult, but not impossible, to change by yourself, but the learning curve puts that set of expensive bearing at risk. There are no gently used, old machines.
Not from the buyers point of view anyways, until it measures out accurate and runs quietly and smoothly, once home.Definitely agree re: the machinery prices out West. The guys in the Lower mainland mostly think anything that runs is pure gold, and the Alberta market gets pushed and pulled both, by the oil money, as the guys there either have money they need machines to make, in the case of the shop buyers, or they have a pretty solid pocket full to spend, and no time to spend shopping for a deal, so they just buy it. Been what I have seen, anyway.
Southern Ontario and the North East US have had enough industry around to make the pickings pretty good there.
Truck freight is cheap enough to make shopping long distance worth while. If a fella can stomach the risk.
Cheers
Trev
I are A WELDER, 25+ yrs. a Red Seal Journeyman, Alberta trained, and I resemble that remark, if'n ya both don't lay off us welders I'm a gonna weld both yer zippers shut and feed ya American Beer, as to makin yer own molds, I shoot PP 45/70 and round ball. Have made slick molds and round ball molds for both using a drill press and fabricated cutters. It can be done but get ready for frustration. Am presently making a mold for 308 with three GG, We'll see how it goes. As for there being no Old welders....well I ain't no spring chicken, but I ain't dead YET!!!(Knock on any available wood) You guys can continue yer squabble now. Just my .02
