Made my 1st batch of Bismuth shotshells today!

LuckyStrike

LuckyStrike

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Cleared a spot in my crowded workshop and laid out all the supplies for reloading. I tried for several months to find ready made Bismuth ammo for my 16, but not much luck, as its not being produced any more....... so
I bought a lightly used Mec sizemaster at the Kamloops gun show, purchased supplies from Will Bilozar (he kindly delivered hulls, wads, powder, bismuth shot, overshot cards, etc from Alberta)
My old pet LC Smith SxS made in 1940's will bark once again this fall in the duck blind. :D Loading soft non tox ammo is not inexpensive, but gives a guy with a pet vintage shotgun an alternative to steel shot which may damage an older gun.
It was quite fun to figure out the process, weigh out the powder, the shot and build a shotshell that looks almost factory. Very satisfying. ( but I did a lot of reading)

Hope you don't mind a few quick photos of my humble setup. Next job is to make 12 bore 3" 2's and BB's for my Browning SxS.... Lookout geese!:shotgun:

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I just loaded a batch of 1 oz Bismuth (courtesy of Cory the Cowboy) @1350 fps for my 16 bore Winchester model 12 and vintage Baikal double. I have not patterned it. I do know from past experience the 16 with loads of bismuth does kill ducks and geese. Another 16 bore in the wetlands! Could it be a trend? Or should I walk the streets with a sign that says, "the end is near..."

Darryl
 
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RR said:
How many slits did you put in your wads and how deep?
Click to expand...
It would appear the wads have not been modified when I checked them out.
There is a gun in Alberia (CatnTheHat) who shoots many sub gauges and slaughters the geese .
I am not sure if he posts here though, but is also a wealth of info when asked.
To the OP, are those 3inch loads?
I noticed in your inventory there is reference to 3inch.
What powder are you using ?
Sorry if I missed , but will check again after adding this.
Reloading shotshell is fun when you get it all setup and running.
Rob
 
WAD slitting..good question

RR said:
How many slits did you put in your wads and how deep?
Click to expand...

I asked around about this one...because there seemed no obvious answer.

Aperantly slitting the wads is by trial and error.... What I chose was 4 slits and 3/4 the way deep into the wad. A pal of mine made similar ammo for his .20 a couple years ago, and made them up withpout slitting the wads.... When he finally hit his 1st duck, it was hit with what was essentially a pellet slug. Big job pulling apart 250 rounds :)

Cost!
I purchased all new supplies including hulls and yes, very expensive rounds to make. 1-1/8 OZ #5 bismuth ..about $2.50/ round. :eek: ouch!
But I so much enjoy my little 16 LC Smith , its worth it to me.

Lucky

oh btw FLHTCUI ... check the last photo for the receipe..... 2-3/4" 16ga.(25gr of SR4756) ...... The first photo is the other side and refers to my next project wich will be making up 250 rounds of 3" BB's and 2's for my full choked BSS.

work work work :)
 
LuckyStrike said:
I asked around about this one...because there seemed no obvious answer.

Aperantly slitting the wads is by trial and error.... What I chose was 4 slits and 3/4 the way deep into the wad. A pal of mine made similar ammo for his .20 a couple years ago, and made them up withpout slitting the wads.... When he finally hit his 1st duck, it was hit with what was essentially a pellet slug. Big job pulling apart 250 rounds :)

Cost!
I purchased all new supplies including hulls and yes, very expensive rounds to make. 1-1/8 OZ #5 bismuth ..about $2.50/ round. :eek: ouch!
But I so much enjoy my little 16 LC Smith , its worth it to me.

Lucky
Click to expand...

I load VP80's for steel shot and I get best results with 4 slits. I found as long as there's 4 slits, they all seem to pattern alright.

If you're going to be loading a lot with unslit wads, buying a piece of plastic PVC (or brass tubing) just wider than the wad, then cutting 4 slits in it to make a "template", it really speeds things up. Also, it keeps the cuts consistent and neat. I just put the wad in, cut with an Xacto knife, pull the tubing up and it's done with just two cuts.

Cory
 
LuckyStrike said:
I asked around about this one...because there seemed no obvious answer.

Aperantly slitting the wads is by trial and error.... What I chose was 4 slits and 3/4 the way deep into the wad. A pal of mine made similar ammo for his .20 a couple years ago, and made them up withpout slitting the wads.... When he finally hit his 1st duck, it was hit with what was essentially a pellet slug. Big job pulling apart 250 rounds :)

Cost!
I purchased all new supplies including hulls and yes, very expensive rounds to make. 1-1/8 OZ #5 bismuth ..about $2.50/ round. :eek: ouch!
But I so much enjoy my little 16 LC Smith , its worth it to me.

Lucky
Click to expand...

Just to share I reload a lot of steel 10 and 12ga plus did a fair amount of bismuth 12 and 10 early on prior to working up my high speed duplex steel loads.
On the 16ga I still reload believe it or not win compression formed hulls with the original win 16aa wads but just for upland and trap and skeet.
On the wad splitting you really have to spend some time on the pattern board to make sure. I have used lead recipies at the same speed which I have found is close enough in pattern to bismuth as far as determining wad splitting and once you have witnessed what seems to pattern best a few bismuth reloads at the end to make sure.
I tried 4 slits, 3 slits, 2 slits, 1/8 up, 1/4 up etc. In the end 4 slits and right to the base pretty well as many factory wads are made proved to be the very best.
It may be different for the 16ga but 4 petal dropped away quick with a good pattern at 30 yards both in 10 and 12ga where 3 petal or more than 3/8 up seemed to produce a slug effect. All the wads I used were sam1 / rsi if I recall correctly.
Take care
 
I have been using bismuth for a couple of years in 16ga, I use the VP80 wad and slit four slitts to at least 3/4. Best to about 1/8 of the base.
I run a fairly hot load. 1 1/8 #2 for geese, don't have data as away from home.
Had poor patterns in both the bps and Fair with three slits,
Also had a go with a high speed load at 1450 fps with 7/8 oz, with good results of # 4 eley bismuth. Using a b& p z16 wad.
It's good stuff, but have noticed the odd split pellet in geese, ESP Canada's
I run heavy shot and nice shot as well depending on what I can get for bulk non toxic shot at a good price.
 
Good to see another vintage gun in the blinds!:dancingbanana:
Great pics!
I have always believed that four slits was best, but last winter when shooting some Kent factory ammo I noticed that many of the wads were not separating at all, but the petals still intact after they hit the ground !

I talked to the Kent rep, and he was not aware of any problems being reported with them.
The ammo BTW, was breaking birds very well, be they close or far.
The wads did travel quite a bit further however - past the high house when shot from low seven.
However, it will not stop me from using four slits!:D
Will Bilozir himself shoots a very nice 16 gauge O/U ( among others) and also uses the VP80 and four slits IIRC
Cat
 
Does anyone here make their own Bismuth shot? When I used to hang out at Gunshop.com
there were a few members there that would buy metallic bismuth by the ton and make there own shot.
 
Nice to see you are getting your old 16 out in the marshes again! I use 16's for most of my shotgunning, and have used the loads and data supplied by Ballistic Products for 16 ga. bismuth handloads.
A word of advice. I am quite leery about the Data supplied by Ballistic Products. Some of their bismuth loads were very high pressure in my guns - expanded brass heads that caused extraction problems, with parts of the head extruded into the space left by the edges of the extractor, and completely flat primers. The load was Fiocci hull, Multi metal wad, Longshot powder, Fiocci primer, double checked and verified to be exactly like in the Ballistic Products recipe. This was in a very strong Merkel o/u, and in a Browning Citori. So now I use data by Hodgdon which I have more confidence in. You will like shooting your 16 I'm sure, following is a picture of me with a mess of geese I took with mine and bismuth shot one morning.
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Loaded more Bismuth .. 12bore / 3"

Just thought I would make a few more comments on reloading for those who are thinking of getting into this.

After finishing with my 16 bore #5's (they shoot smoothly and pattern well, btw) Look out DUCKS!!!!!!!



The other day I reset my Mec to make the 3" , 12 Bore number2's (1-3/8OZ Bismuth) .... I encountered a number of problems. First, I got the loader in the wrong position.. I moved it up, but not quite far enough, so I buckled the 1st few rounds in trying to set the crimps. Ugggh!

Now I know why people have several different loaders... 1 for each bore!

So... I finally got the height correct .... still problems.

What I finally figured out is ... Larger shot size, like #2 and BB (bismuth) do not drop correctly from the loader(bismuth seems a bit sticky) ... I had to finally get my Ohous beam balance and weigh each load. No problem.. a bit more time, but every one is very close. Next thing I had to do was to really jam down the wad (MG42 or STS) hard into the Fiocchi hull to set the depth. My loader caught the wad and pulled it back out, so had to do this step by hand using a dowel.
Then... drop in the shot, shake/vibrate it and press it even.... add overshot card ... set the crimp start... then on the final stage, very gingerly manipulate the press to make the final crimp. Whew! These loads are from the Bismuth load manual, but OMG .. they are tight fits.

I found that what was needed to make the crimp was 11 to 12 mm of space from the case top to the overshot card. Anything less... the case buckled just above the brass.

My next dilemma is to load the BB's ... I have ruined several cases doing the same thing that worked for the 2's , but they just wont work with this 1-3/8 OZ load.

I suppose I could remove a few BB's to make more headspace?

But will this affect the pattern and velocity? I think so. hmmm

There is another load using the same hulls and wads in 1-1/4OZ .. Maybe thats the ticket. I will report back when I figure it out.

Thanks for listening...

Lucky

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For me usually anything in the BB range I hand load and weigh one at a time. Some guys add dry moly and yes the steel conversion kit to your sizemaster which I cannot tell if you added but I see the bottle . That will help but for a couple hundred rounds a year it is hand load for me.
The problem with your crimp is mec reloaders are designed for 1x hulls not new. They will crimp new hulls most times correctly if you pump the handle like 8-10 times and slowly work a crimp. Ideally you want to add a super crown crimp starter but they are like $40.00
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As far as more than one loaders I have no idea what you are talking about:)
but I stopped ajusting 20 years ago, just not woirth the BS and now have more mec loaders than I have fingers and toes set up. Take care
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madtrapper143 said:
I just loaded a batch of 1 oz Bismuth (courtesy of Cory the Cowboy) @1350 fps for my 16 bore Winchester model 12 and vintage Baikal double. I have not patterned it.
Click to expand...
Somewhat off topic, and not to criticize choices, but why the obsession with high velocities - by which I mean anything much over 1200 fps and thereabouts.

I kind of understand it from a steel shot perspective, but I have never fired a round of steel shot nor reloaded same, and probably never will. Bismuth, however, is more like lead in weight for a given pellet size than steel.

When I was a kid I always used to buy Imperial's "Long Range" shells. The advertised velocity was impressive. And when I bought my Ponsness Warren, I quickly went to the high speed load data of Lyman's shotshell reloading book (1st Edition, still have it beside the three that followed it). I shot a lot of birds, so I guess I was successful with those choices.

Then I fell in bad company, namely the writings of a shotgun writer named Don Zutz. He used the ballistics of shot at various ranges to show how little I was gaining by starting them out fast (other than recoil...) once you got out to the ranges where supposedly that would help. And pointed out that you'd be using a different lead at those ranges than you would be using with your loads for handicap trap that were only going around 1200 fps.

Anyways, I throttled all my reloads back to around 1200 fps, whether for trap and skeet or magnum loads for pass shooting ducks and geese. Right away found out at the patterning board that it was much easier to get much nicer patterns. It seemed I connected more often while hunting, and as far as I could tell the birds became just as dead just as fast as before with the "long range" stuff I was both buying and cranking out in the basement.

So that made me a believer in relatively mild velocities that are close to identical over all your shot loads. But loads in the upper range of velocity levels seems to be the norm now, with all kinds of shot, so I seem to be swimming upstream like a salmon on this issue.

That's why I asked about the velocity of the loads - am I missing something here or what?
 
3MACS /// Thanks for the info.... You mentioned a "steel conversion kit" Not sure what this is, and no, I don't have it.. other than the shot bottles I bought are marked for non tox/steel.

I did buy the brass starter, but it isn't pictured there, as I was not having any luck with it, so went back to the plastic one. I am quite convinced that the 1st reloading will go better as the hulls will have some memory and I'm sure will crimp easier.

RICK!
I see what you are saying about the speed thing, though I didn't think the loads I was making were terribly fast. ( I am truly not a fan of those 1550fps + steel loads... just adds to the ouch factor)
My 16 bore #5's are flying at 1310. The load stats I have show the slowest ones going 1290. (from the Handloading Bismuth Shotshell manual) Ballistics Products
Wonder where I might find 1200 fps data on bismuth?

Lucky
 
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