Made my 1st batch of Bismuth shotshells today!
- Thread starter LuckyStrike
- Start date
They weren't really speedy, necessarily, particularly if you were using steel. But faster than 1150-1200 fps trap and skeet loads. And it was also kind of a generic question about load velocity in general, wondering if I was missing something.
I had lots of instructive communication with Don Zutz while he was still alive and I was trying to get my shooting and reloading sorted out for shotgunning. He was a very helpful guy who was always willing to answer questions and explain things to some stranger he'd never met who contacted him with questions. I enjoyed his columns and stuff as well... I think that man spent all his spare time either shooting or investigating patterns at the patterning board. Pity he is gone now; nice guy.
As I recall without going and hunting through filing cabinets, he explained that speed with steel was a good thing because steel didn't deform noticeably, turning it's already horrible B.C. into something much worse. So speed with steel really helped to make it equivalent or better than lead at range, because it still arrived out there with lots more speed than lead would have.
Speed OTOH, didn't help much with lead because even with chilled, plated, etc lead shot, there was still a lot of deformation of individual pellets - enough to make their already crappy BC for a sphere much, much worse. And with wind resistance being the square of velocity, the extra speed at the muzzle was lost at range due to the now-extra-crappy BC of the deformed pellets. In other words, if loads were throttled back to more trap-like 1200 fps muzzle velocities, by the time they got out to 30-40 yards and beyond, they weren't really going much if any slower than the nuclear loads I was buying and reloading at the time. So, impact energy was about the same, less recoil, etc. If anything, he advocated trading high speed with lighter shot loads for lower speeds with heavier shot loads, meaning more pellets on the bird. He referenced some extensive testing results done by a Winchester shot ballistician on both lead and steel shot in explaining this.
If the above makes some sense, and assuming bismuth deforms just like lead does, then I guess specific to bismuth I would wonder if there would be any benefit to throttling bismuth back to 1200 fps muzzle velocities as well. Or, lower velocities accompanied by bigger shot charges. I don't know anything about bismuth and it's hardness, deformation, etc...
As I mentioned, I do know both my trap & skeet scores and field shooting improved in the fall months when I would be shooting trap/skeet one day, and hunting upland birds the next. Or, sometimes in the same day. There might be all kinds of reasons for that - psychological, etc. But what made sense to me was that all my loads, trap/skeet or upland hunting, all were around the 1200 fps range at the muzzle. So the proper lead was consistent for identical flight paths, whether shooting wobble trap or a flushing sharpie. No control over the respective speed of the targets, of course, but at least the variable velocities of different loads was eliminated.
Developing new loads for shotguns at the patterning frame at the club also seemed to get a lot easier once I quite trying to get the fastest velocity possible out of every load. I don't know it for a fact, but I suspect lower velocities helped with this as well.
Anyways, I was more posing a question about speed with lead/bismuth. Certainly not asserting a point because I have never reloaded bismuth; sticking with upland birds and clays allows me to shoot all my pre-steel era shotguns without resorting to things like bismuth.
Not wanting to overthink the whole thing, or resort to picking fly poop out of pepper, but I really did get a big improvement in my success once I grew out of the obsession I'd previously had with using the fastest loads I could buy or find in a reloading manual.
Just sittin' here wonderin' about the speed thing and non-steel shot...
Ah yup. That's why I said I understood it from a steel perspective in my initial post. I probably wasn't clear enough, but I was addressing the issue of speed with bismuth loads like the subject of this thread, or lead (which I suspect most still use for upland game).
Previous post might explain my query better.
3MACS /// Thanks for the info.... You mentioned a "steel conversion kit" Not sure what this is, and no, I don't have it.. other than the shot bottles I bought are marked for non tox/steel.
I did buy the brass starter, but it isn't pictured there, as I was not having any luck with it, so went back to the plastic one. I am quite convinced that the 1st reloading will go better as the hulls will have some memory and I'm sure will crimp easier.
Hi:
All the steel shot kit consists of is the yellow bottle with the larger cork opening which you have, a larger inside diameter rammer tube and a steel vs plastic larger inside diameter drop tube.
The larger inside diameter helps with the larger shot, as does the bottle plus the metal drop tubes can be waxed inside to help with the sticking and I find the larger rammer tube seats the hard wads a bit easier.
A 3" 12ga steel master is just your sizemaster painted black with these items added. I would buy the two tubes from mec for the single stage since you already have the bottle. take care
Also there is two brass starters the old mec one which really is not the same as I show in the pic and is no better than their plastic one. Which one did you buy.
LuckyStrike
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver Island
Brass crimp starter
Also there is two brass starters the old mec one which really is not the same as I show in the pic and is no better than their plastic one. Which one did you buy.[/QUOTE]
The one I got just a few weeks ago from Ballistics products looks exactly like the one you show in your photo.
My sizemaster is likely about 15 years old, but was used very little. It came with 28 / 16 / 12 dies ... but after changing back and forth... I see a future with a row of these loaders
WAY better...
Now ... where can I find more bench space (scratches head and looks perplexed) hmmm
Also there is two brass starters the old mec one which really is not the same as I show in the pic and is no better than their plastic one. Which one did you buy.[/QUOTE]
The one I got just a few weeks ago from Ballistics products looks exactly like the one you show in your photo.
My sizemaster is likely about 15 years old, but was used very little. It came with 28 / 16 / 12 dies ... but after changing back and forth... I see a future with a row of these loaders
WAY better...Now ... where can I find more bench space (scratches head and looks perplexed) hmmm
The one I got just a few weeks ago from Ballistics products looks exactly like the one you show in your photo.
My sizemaster is likely about 15 years old, but was used very little. It came with 28 / 16 / 12 dies ... but after changing back and forth... I see a future with a row of these loaders
WAY better...Now ... where can I find more bench space (scratches head and looks perplexed) hmmm[/QUOTE]
That one in the photo works well. I think you are going to have to play with it on those new hulls. If you have the other die sets you have it beat. Watch and pick up a couple of used 12ga sizemasters and switch them over. As far as space as you can see I keep some on a shelf and others in a metal locker with just one on the bench at a time.
I have a universal pad there with a cookie sheet to catch the lead when I screw up. Takes like 4 minutes to switch loaders.
The next reload on these hulls will be much easier. New is always a pain.take care
LuckyStrike
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver Island
RICK!
You make some very good points.. and some I have pondered since being forced to shoot steel for waterfowl.
I am certain for one that a consistant velocitym say 1200fps or close to this will help a shooter be more constant. It only stands to reason that mixing different ammo between say trap, upland and waterfowl (ranges of 1200 - 1600 fps) might make it very difficult to get a lead correct.
I find it even tricky to go from 1 shotgun to another... They all just handle so differently.
The bismuth shot is a bit lighter than lead, but similar and not quite as soft as lead, but it does compare in bot at around 85% of lead qualities. The early bismuth was brittle and tended to crack rather than expand and flatten, but this latest stuff is better.
This year will be a test on how these rather expensive loads perform. I am guessing that I will like them enough to buy more this winter for next fall.
I'll still use steel as my backup (in a different shotgun) as I can't really afford to just use the bismuth. Last year the best performing steel loads were the KENT 1-3/8 oz 1320 fps ammo. I found it far superior to the winchester HV that was rated at 1550.
After a day of shooting those fast 3" loads..... I have to check the mirror to see how many of my teeth are still in 1 piece!
Happy Shootin
Lucky
You make some very good points.. and some I have pondered since being forced to shoot steel for waterfowl.
I am certain for one that a consistant velocitym say 1200fps or close to this will help a shooter be more constant. It only stands to reason that mixing different ammo between say trap, upland and waterfowl (ranges of 1200 - 1600 fps) might make it very difficult to get a lead correct.
I find it even tricky to go from 1 shotgun to another... They all just handle so differently.
The bismuth shot is a bit lighter than lead, but similar and not quite as soft as lead, but it does compare in bot at around 85% of lead qualities. The early bismuth was brittle and tended to crack rather than expand and flatten, but this latest stuff is better.
This year will be a test on how these rather expensive loads perform. I am guessing that I will like them enough to buy more this winter for next fall.
I'll still use steel as my backup (in a different shotgun) as I can't really afford to just use the bismuth. Last year the best performing steel loads were the KENT 1-3/8 oz 1320 fps ammo. I found it far superior to the winchester HV that was rated at 1550.
After a day of shooting those fast 3" loads..... I have to check the mirror to see how many of my teeth are still in 1 piece!
Happy Shootin
Lucky
It may also be with me that I am that guy who needs all the help he can get... I remember Zutz explaining his thought that the reason one guy is deadly with a 28 gauge while another guy just couldn't have much success is the first guy was good enough to center everything that he was shooting at, while the second guy was not so good and there simply wasn't enough pellets in the annular ring of a 28 gauge pattern for cleanly taking birds when you weren't centering them.
Anyways, I'm a pretty average wingshot, and I probably don't adapt to changes needed in lead when switching between loads of different velocities very well. If all my loads leave the muzzle at about the same velocity, I probably center more birds a lot more often, instead of just clipping them with the edge.
My theory on why my success improved when I quit trying to get my hunting loads moving at the speed of light while switching back to using "normal" loads for trap/skeet...
The guy is deadly with the 28ga since he knows how to shoot
and 9 times out of 10 the other is stopping the gun.. All of my target loads regardless if 410 or 12ga are at 1200 but my steel are all over 1600.
You need speed to kill with steel period. That is why when the change from lead to steel was 1st implemented the factory steel would not kill and we all were forced to start reloading and it was not long before it became clear we had to speed up to cleanly kill ducks and geese.
This difference in speed you are talking is what maybe 9" at 30 yards. I for one don't see that when I am target shooting or hunting.
Most competitive shooters will always shoot the 28ga the best since it patterns very well and there is zero chance of flinching.
I am by no means an expert but shoot the 28 in all 12 ga events including trap and can hold my own even win the odd time.
I don't think I have changed my target 28ga load in 25years. Still old compression hulls, aawads and unique at 1200.
The best thing I feel a guy can do to improve his shooting is to have his gun fitted, then patterned , stick with the best load you found then shoot as much as you can afford.Especially shooting steel it will shock you how some factory loads pattern in different guns. Give you an example. I have two browning gold 3 1/2 12ga. One black syn and the other camo. Basically identical guns one I have to use a IC choke and the other a IM to get the same patterns at 30 yards with the same ammo. To this day I have no idea why but know what the paper shows.
take care
LuckyStrike
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver Island
This falls ammo eaters
Thanks to a fellow gun nut, I now have a pair of these 1980's SxS's .. both chambered for 3" and have 30" barrels.
The Grade 2 was opened up to shoot steel... and the grade one is full and full, (my bismuth gun) so I'll be prepared for any situation this coming fall!
Look out ducks & geese!
Lucky
Thanks to a fellow gun nut, I now have a pair of these 1980's SxS's .. both chambered for 3" and have 30" barrels.
The Grade 2 was opened up to shoot steel... and the grade one is full and full, (my bismuth gun) so I'll be prepared for any situation this coming fall!
Look out ducks & geese!
Lucky
