Magazine limits for hunting with shotgun in Ontario

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coreyd

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A friend and I were having a discussion about hunting in Ontario with a shotgun and he asked me about plugging the tube to 2 rounds. We were discussing how long the plug would have to be. We both run VersaMax's marked as 3.5" guns. My assertion was that as long as you couldn't lock in a third 3.5" shell into the tube you would be OK. His assertion is that as long as you can't lock a third 2-3/4" shell into the tube you are legal.

With my assertion the amount of space available for shells in the tube would be just under 9", let's say 8.5" which would allow more than two 2-3/4". After some discussion we decided to reach out to the MNR here and ask.

Here's the response:
Thank you for your inquiry.

No, you would not be legally able to hunt with this shotgun as you can hold more than two 2 ¾” shells in the magazine. This would be an offence under the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act. You need to modify the plug in the magazine by making it slightly longer until you can no longer get more than two rounds in the magazine. Don’t make it too long however, or you won’t be able to fit the two 3 ½” shells in. If you are unable to preform this work yourself, any gunsmith can do it for you.
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So with that said I decided to go look up the law itself and there is no mention of shell size:
Shotguns
19 A person shall not hunt with a shotgun unless the shotgun has been permanently plugged or altered so that it cannot hold a total of more than three shells at one time in the chamber and magazine. 1997, c. 41, s. 19.
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Does anybody know of any case law that exists in regards to this? I haven't been able to find any. To me the 2-3/4" seems a little arbitrary because if it were truly "more than 2 of any shell", I have some of those little shorty's they are selling and I can definitely get more than 2 of those in if it's plugged to be able to hold exactly two 2-3/4" shells.

I'm not going to risk it to find out but I have a hard time believing that if a judge is shown that a marked 3.5" gun cannot physically hold three shells of 3.5" but can hold three shorter shells in the tube that they would not dismiss the charge.

What do you guys know or think?
 
In BC it’s the same, hunting regs only say limited to 2 in the magazine and one in the chamber. No mention of shell length unlike federal mag limits which are outside of hunting conditions, so your friend is correct. It will be two of whatever your hunting with, two shells is two shells regardless of if it’s 2.75” or 3.5” unfortunately. Same as ghost loading while hunting, get caught with it and you’ll be in trouble.

Federal semi auto mag limits state “of whatever its chambered for”.
 
coreyd said:
A friend and I were having a discussion about hunting in Ontario with a shotgun and he asked me about plugging the tube to 2 rounds. We were discussing how long the plug would have to be. We both run VersaMax's marked as 3.5" guns. My assertion was that as long as you couldn't lock in a third 3.5" shell into the tube you would be OK. His assertion is that as long as you can't lock a third 2-3/4" shell into the tube you are legal.
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The hunting regulations (both in the federal Migratory Birds Act and in the various provincial statutes) was definitely written with the 2 3/4 inch shells in mind, even if they don't specifically identify them. Your friend is correct in his interpretation.

Does anybody know of any case law that exists in regards to this? I haven't been able to find any. To me the 2-3/4" seems a little arbitrary because if it were truly "more than 2 of any shell", I have some of those little shorty's they are selling and I can definitely get more than 2 of those in if it's plugged to be able to hold exactly two 2-3/4" shells.
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The appearance of the mini shells have thrown uncertainty into the mix, that's certainly true. If a case makes it into court on the point (and like you, I haven't seen any), the judge will likely hear evidence and take note of the intent of the legislation against the historical backdrop and what shells are in prevailing use. The conservation officer who pulls mini shells out of his pocket, and charges you on the basis that he can get more than three of those into the gun, is going to have some fanciful explaining to do in court.

I'm not going to risk it to find out but I have a hard time believing that if a judge is shown that a marked 3.5" gun cannot physically hold three shells of 3.5" but can hold three shorter shells in the tube that they would not dismiss the charge. What do you guys know or think?
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If your shotgun can hold more than three shells (of what you're using) in the magazine and chamber, a charge will stick.
 
I don't have an answer for you, but the 1 3/4" shells certainly make things interesting in this regard. If you could fit two 3 1/2" rounds in the magazine, you should be able to fit four of the Shorty's. Even a magazine that will only accept two 2 3/4" shells would fit three of the 1 3/4" rounds.

Edit: CV32 beat me to it. I suppose best practice would be to not carry a round that you could exceed the mag capacity with.
 
I understand what your trying to figure out.
I only have 4 shotguns, two singles, a double and a pump.

The pump is 3". I cannot get more than two in tube mag at once. I measured the "space" and its 7".

Two in the mag and one in the pipe. In 30 years in and out of the bush I've NEVER been asked how many it holds. Never.

Your Versamax is 3.5" shell x two shells is 7". Id leave enough room for 7.25".

7.25" (room in the mag tube) / 2.75" (short shell length) = 2.5 short shells would fit in a 7.25" tube. Three 2.75" shells won't fit in a 7" mag tube.
 
Your wrong, your friend is right... if you can get three 2 3/4" shells in the tube it is illegal.
 
Onus is on the shooter to carry a legal firearm. Its like speeding while in a car, just because it'll do 200KPH doesn't mean you legally can.

If it can carry 10 shells its not legal to hunt with, get caught with it, take your fine and charges like a man (like doing 200kph and getting caught)

Keep it legal, no problems. (gun or the car analogy)



Don't try and make a problem where there isn't one.
 
I'll say that according to the MNR, my friend is right and I am not. I just don't see anywhere in the legislation where it specifically says a size. That is why I asked for case law, if it exists otherwise it's all "he said she said". Nowhere did I ask who was right. I simply mentioned that we were discussing it.

Dodosmike said:
Onus is on the shooter to carry a legal firearm. Its like speeding while in a car, just because it'll do 200KPH doesn't mean you legally can.

If it can carry 10 shells its not legal to hunt with, get caught with it, take your fine and charges like a man (like doing 200kph and getting caught)

Keep it legal, no problems. (gun or the car analogy)



Don't try and make a problem where there isn't one.
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The fact that your math is based on fired shells and not unfired doesn't inspire any confidence in what you are saying. Telling me not to make a problem where there isn't one is retarded. I specifically asked to see if anyone else knew more than me by way of case law and that I wasn't going to try this myself. Get your own facts straight before telling me something stupid.
 
coreyd said:
I'll say that according to the MNR, my friend is right and I am not. I just don't see anywhere in the legislation where it specifically says a size. That is why I asked for case law, if it exists otherwise it's all "he said she said". Nowhere did I ask who was right. I simply mentioned that we were discussing it..
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The regs are the legislation as far as hunting goes.
 
rkm456 said:
The regs are the legislation as far as hunting goes.
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Really? So the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act means nothing?

The whole point of this thread is where does the "maximum of two 2-3/4" shells" come from. There is no law that says this, I was asking if anyone knew of case law. The 2-3/4" thing seems like an "arbitrarily made up by bureaucrat" BS.
 
So carry the gun load with as many as it holds then. I don't care. If your at the range, fill your boots with whatever you choose.

If your in the bush with a "fully loaded mag tube" with whatever ammo you choose, and you get caught with more than three in the gun, take your fine.

https://files.ontario.ca/mnrf-2019-hunting-regulations-en-04-0-2019.pdf

PG 23, left column, mid way down:
"A shotgun must be plugged so that it cannot hold more than a total of three shells in the chamber and magazine combined."
 
coreyd said:
Really? So the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act means nothing?

The whole point of this thread is where does the "maximum of two 2-3/4" shells" come from. There is no law that says this, I was asking if anyone knew of case law. The 2-3/4" thing seems like an "arbitrarily made up by bureaucrat" BS.
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It does not have to say "2 3/4" shells... it only has to specify the maximum number of "shells," which automatically reverts to the shortest shell available... for all intents and purposes, the "2 3/4" length. In the decades that the law has been in place, I have not ever heard of someone not understanding this basic premise... there does not have to be case law on this question, as it is painfully obvious.
 
coreyd said:
The whole point of this thread is where does the "maximum of two 2-3/4" shells" come from. There is no law that says this, I was asking if anyone knew of case law. The 2-3/4" thing seems like an "arbitrarily made up by bureaucrat" BS.
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Don't get too hung up on the length of the shotshell. The law speaks to the number of shells (which limit was brought in as a conservation measure), and doesn't define what constitutes a "shell". Maybe someday a future amendment will take care of it. In the meantime, if your shotgun doesn't take more than three shells of the size you're using, you're going to be fine.
 
Note that the legal reference you quote indicates the plug must be Permanent! Unless you are considering permanently installing this plug, don't bother worrying about how many rounds it can hold because you aren't satisfying the law anyways.

Just as with the detachable box mags for rifles, 99% of modifications don't meet the legal requirements because everyone uses removable plugs. Law enforcement seems entirely uninterested in enforcing it to the letter as well, so don't sweat it too much. .

I know under federal law the CFO has maintained that if the chamber is marked 3.5" and is semi auto, then its limited to 5 rds of 3.5" and if it holds 7 rds of 2.75" or 10 rds of 1.75" then so be it. But keep in mind that language in hunting regs might not match federal magazine rules and might require a different interpretation.

From a statutory interpretation point of view the intent is clearly to force reloads after 3 shots. Get found with 4 shells and you could end up spending some money proving your innocence.

The lack of case law on this issue tells us that in all the years its never gone to court, so you can be sure that there simply isnt anyone getting in serious trouble over this rule.

Last question for the OP. Did your gun come with a plug? The MNR said consult with a firearms expert. If the manufacturer gave you a plug. Use it and dont load more than 3 shells and you couldn't possibly be convicted of anything.
 
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Dodosmike said:
So carry the gun load with as many as it holds then. I don't care. If your at the range, fill your boots with whatever you choose.

If your in the bush with a "fully loaded mag tube" with whatever ammo you choose, and you get caught with more than three in the gun, take your fine.

https://files.ontario.ca/mnrf-2019-hunting-regulations-en-04-0-2019.pdf

PG 23, left column, mid way down:
"A shotgun must be plugged so that it cannot hold more than a total of three shells in the chamber and magazine combined."
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I'm not sure what your education is, maybe grade 2? Nowhere did I say fully loaded mag tube, nowhere did I say anything you are talking about. You comprehension of the english language is poor. Your math is poor. Go away.
 
Cameron SS said:
Note that the legal reference you quote indicates the plug must be Permanent! Unless you are considering permanently installing this plug, don't bother worrying about how many rounds it can hold because you aren't satisfying the law anyways.

Just as with the detachable box mags for rifles, 99% of modifications don't meet the legal requirements because everyone uses removable plugs. Law enforcement seems entirely uninterested in enforcing it to the letter as well, so don't sweat it too much. .

I know under federal law the CFO has maintained that if the chamber is marked 3.5" and is semi auto, then its limited to 5 rds of 3.5" and if it holds 7 rds of 2.75" or 10 rds of 1.75" then so be it. But keep in mind that language in hunting regs might not match federal magazine rules and might require a different interpretation.

From a statutory interpretation point of view the intent is clearly to force reloads after 3 shots. Get found with 4 shells and you could end up spending some money proving your innocence.

The lack of case law on this issue tells us that in all the years its never gone to court, so you can be sure that there simply isnt anyone getting in serious trouble over this rule.

Last question for the OP. Did your gun come with a plug? The MNR said consult with a firearms expert. If the manufacturer gave you a plug. Use it and dont load more than 3 shells and you couldn't possibly be convicted of anything.
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Very interesting points, especially about the permanent plug or alteration, which made me think as well because pretty much everybody has a removable plug that came with their gun.

My reasoning that the tube could hold 2.9 rounds of 3.5", which would physically allow three 2.75" was based on the wording of the federal magazine limits.
 
So just because I can, the Aguila 1.75" shells are just under 1.5" before being shot. 3 of them inline is just under 4.5", so we should be plugging our tubes to what? 4"? Does it make sense to say the gun needs to be plugged to carry no more than 2 of the shortest shells now? or would it make sense to say the gun should only be capable of holding no more than two of the size the gun is made for?

I asked a simple question when I started this... does anyone know of any case law as nowhere in the actual law does it state the size, but the MNR rep says 2-3/4"

Some of you are implying that I am or am planning to break a law, which I am not. Some people cannot read, do math or understand basics terminology.
 
They aren’t going to tell you shell length with regards to mag limits in the hunting regs as there is a wide range of shotgun shell lengths, it’s two shells of whatever you are using. It’s not higher math, 2 in the tube is just that. If you’re hunting with mini shells you better have a plug that limits it to 2, if you’re hunting with 3.5” it can only hold 2.

It you are hunting with 3.5” shells and have a handful of shorter shells on your person you should probably plug it to 2 of the shortest length shell your carrying around.
 
Here in stubble country the CO's carry a flexible tube that fits in the magazine , if any red isn't visible on the tube you're in violation with the associated fines and yes it is set for 2.75" shells. I did have a dozy CO put the tube in my sxs and the look on my face woke him up and we both had a laugh.
 
You are confusing the wildlife act with the firearms act. Dont worry, a lot of people do it, and on occasion I do too.

The wildlife act is written to be 3 rounds in the gun. So one in the chamber, 2 in the tube. It does not say anything about shell size. if you are using mini shells, you are supposed to be limited to 2 minishells in the tube. But what mad lad would do that? So the CO's will measure your tube for 2.75" shells.

I understand your view of the matter, but you are confusing a mag capacity from the firearms act with the wildlife act. I know you are talking hypothetical, im not saying your upto no good.

If it helps, My 3.5" shotguns are plugged so they can only fit 2x 3.5" shells and fits like 2.5x 2 3/4" shells (not 3x). I hope this helps.
 
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