hi, i recently got cci large magnum rifle primers, im just getting into reloading 308 and was wondering if i could use these primers ( only ones available at LGS) in 308 brass with a light load of either varget or H4895 powder. I will be using Frontier plated 155gr bullets in an m1 garand
Magnum rifle primers in 308
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They are perfectly safe to use. They can cause higher pressure by some reports. If you develop a load with mag primers and switch to normal primers, you might lose some fps (no idea how much) and have to work up again. The opposite could also occur. Some old timers say using magnum primers is like adding 10% more powder but that impossible to say with all combinations. Just shoot and check your results.
You don't need to use a light load. Just work up a load from the starting values as normal and stop where you get the results you're after. Unless you're after a light load for reduced recoil or something, in which case it'll still work but I'd recommend against the Varget. There is a 60% rule published by Hodgdon for use with IMR and H 4895. You use 60% of a max listed charge for a given bullet weight and it is still a safe load. If you google around you can probably find the page on the Hodgdon site. But again you don't have to use a light load with magnum primers, just work it up as normal.
You don't need to use a light load. Just work up a load from the starting values as normal and stop where you get the results you're after. Unless you're after a light load for reduced recoil or something, in which case it'll still work but I'd recommend against the Varget. There is a 60% rule published by Hodgdon for use with IMR and H 4895. You use 60% of a max listed charge for a given bullet weight and it is still a safe load. If you google around you can probably find the page on the Hodgdon site. But again you don't have to use a light load with magnum primers, just work it up as normal.
I would proceed with caution. You may be able to get away with it using H4895 however there are other powders that it would be outright dangerous. I believe W296, a pistol powder comes to mind. I just don't want you thinking this is acceptable practice in all circumstances. Could be a good way to ruin a good gun not to mention yourself and others in your vicinity. I personally wouldn't do it but it's your decision.
A pistol can be another matter but in any rifle it's perfectly safe so long as the load is worked up as normal. Many people use magnum primers as standard for all loads with no problems whatsoever. My first 223 reloads all had magnum primers because that's all I could find. Once I switched to normal primers I worked my load up again and everything was fine.
i use only normal small pistol primers for my 9mm ( winchester or cci). the only reason i got this magnum primer is because it was the only large rifle primer they had in stock and i got it. Why not use varget for a light/medium load?
My goal is to have two loads for my m1 garand, light load for reduced recoil, longer life span and plinking at steel target, and a normal spec load for ORA matches (100-300 yards )
My goal is to have two loads for my m1 garand, light load for reduced recoil, longer life span and plinking at steel target, and a normal spec load for ORA matches (100-300 yards )
Varget is slower so might not get a consistent burn at lower pressures.
Also keep in mind that the M1 Garand gas system was designed to operate with a certain pressure curve. Many 30-06 factory loads (I know, yours is 308) use slower powders that can beat up the oprod. The recommended burn rate range is generally 3031-4064 on the burn rate chart. 4895 sits inside that range but Varget is slower than 4064 which is the slowest recommended powder.
The gun is meant to be fired. I'd just fire regular loads through it for all purposes. Reducing your pressure can cause cycling problems and build up a lot of dirt. The difference in barrel life will be insignificant. Unless you are shooting thousands of rounds a year through it the gun will outlast you. Any load that cycles the action and is within the spec pressure will put about the same amount of wear on the components. Unless you switched to cast bullets with shotgun powder, which will never cycle the action without blowing up the rifle, you aren't going to extend the life of the rifle any. If you aren't comfortable with 308 recoil, shoot more and you will get more used to it or buy a rifle chambered in a lower recoil round. If it was a bolt gun, downloading handloads is far more feasible, but in a semi (especially a picky semi like a Garand or M1A) there's a lot less wiggle room.
Also keep in mind that the M1 Garand gas system was designed to operate with a certain pressure curve. Many 30-06 factory loads (I know, yours is 308) use slower powders that can beat up the oprod. The recommended burn rate range is generally 3031-4064 on the burn rate chart. 4895 sits inside that range but Varget is slower than 4064 which is the slowest recommended powder.
The gun is meant to be fired. I'd just fire regular loads through it for all purposes. Reducing your pressure can cause cycling problems and build up a lot of dirt. The difference in barrel life will be insignificant. Unless you are shooting thousands of rounds a year through it the gun will outlast you. Any load that cycles the action and is within the spec pressure will put about the same amount of wear on the components. Unless you switched to cast bullets with shotgun powder, which will never cycle the action without blowing up the rifle, you aren't going to extend the life of the rifle any. If you aren't comfortable with 308 recoil, shoot more and you will get more used to it or buy a rifle chambered in a lower recoil round. If it was a bolt gun, downloading handloads is far more feasible, but in a semi (especially a picky semi like a Garand or M1A) there's a lot less wiggle room.
Ok, that is good to know. I have two pounds of 4895 and 1 pound of varget, i also plan on geting a 308 bolt gun for ORA precision and maybe mess around in f class for fun to see how it is. I take it i can use varget in a bolt gun for long distance shooting? ( with heavier match bullets like hornady Amax or SMKs)?
not sure where you got that info from but a light load of any powder for any calibre with a magnum primer instead of a standard primer is NOT going to do anything but work.....
i've used magnum primers in 9mm, 45acp, and 38spl and nothing happens accept what should. the only possible way something could happen is if you worked up a load to max or above and swtiched to a magnum primer. even then i suspect not a whole lot would happen.
Got the info out of the Hornady manual and my father's bad experience with a 357 Max out of a Contender. All I was trying to explain is this isn't a mix and match what you "think" should be fine deal. There are certain powders that don't like reduced loads and it's unwise, in my opinion to just start guessing. Do as you will.
- Location
- B.C. Interior
All I use is Varget and cci 250 mag primers in my .308
Chinbullco
Regular
- Location
- NW Alberta
Powders that give problems with reduced loads wouldn't be used in a 308. I have experienced super-high pressure with slow burning powder (Retumbo) in light loads for a wildcat cartridge that had no load data. Lyman manuals have data for cast bullet loads and the powders that they use drastically reduce velocity. These same powders can be used to drive jacketed bullets at reduced velocities. OP states he will using plated bullets, with these bullets cast bullet load data will give better results.
Frontier bullets is the company that makes them. I contacted them and they said the plating is thick enough that it can be loaded as a normal 155 gr 30 cal bullet.
I never experimented with them with typical .308 powders like Blc2 or varget but I did use them experimenting with 200gr cast and h4831sc (yes in a .308) it was ok...nothing amazing in terms of SD and not a precision round really, I use them a lot experimenting with those same 200gr casts and subsonic plinking loads loaded with 5 to 7 grains of 700x...all this in .308.
They have their uses but like others said, if you use them with typical powders, ladder up the charges from the low side or you may end up with to much pressure. I'm not good enough at this yet to offer an opinion on whether the better burning from the mag primer would be better than the higher powder volume filled with the non mag primers rounds. I think that would need testing to find out.
They have their uses but like others said, if you use them with typical powders, ladder up the charges from the low side or you may end up with to much pressure. I'm not good enough at this yet to offer an opinion on whether the better burning from the mag primer would be better than the higher powder volume filled with the non mag primers rounds. I think that would need testing to find out.
Magnum primers are about the powder used(Magnum primers are good for cold weather shooting too.) and have nothing whatever to do with the cartridge or its name. You don't need 'em for either 4895 or Varget, but it won't give you any grief.
You can use Varget in a bolt gun for any bullet weight you have data for(go to Hodgdon's site). Works well with 168 and 175 grain match bullets in either .308 or .30-06. 42.0 to 45.0(C) and 42.0 to 46.0(C) respectively. The 'C' means compressed. Nothing to worry about.
For Frontier plated 155gr bullets in an M-1 Garand you want cast bullet data. Plated bullets are not jacketed and use cast data. Varget is well known M1 Rifle powder, but not using cast/plated bullets. The Rifle prefers IMR or H 4895(close but not the same thing) or IMR4064(more consistent accuracy than either 4895) with 150 to 180 grain jacketed bullets.
W296 isn't used in rifle cartridges other than .30 Carbine. Rifle and handgun powders are an apples and oranges thing.
You can use Varget in a bolt gun for any bullet weight you have data for(go to Hodgdon's site). Works well with 168 and 175 grain match bullets in either .308 or .30-06. 42.0 to 45.0(C) and 42.0 to 46.0(C) respectively. The 'C' means compressed. Nothing to worry about.
For Frontier plated 155gr bullets in an M-1 Garand you want cast bullet data. Plated bullets are not jacketed and use cast data. Varget is well known M1 Rifle powder, but not using cast/plated bullets. The Rifle prefers IMR or H 4895(close but not the same thing) or IMR4064(more consistent accuracy than either 4895) with 150 to 180 grain jacketed bullets.
W296 isn't used in rifle cartridges other than .30 Carbine. Rifle and handgun powders are an apples and oranges thing.
There is probably no other subject than shooting in general and reloading in particular, to have so much hogwash (oops, I mean theories) attached to it. Primers is a good example.
--You have to use magnum primers with ball powder.
You have to use magnum primers in cold weather.
You have to use magnum primers in big magnum rifles, for sure with ball powder and of course a big magnum, in the cold, with ball powder!
You have to work up your load again when you change to a magnum powder, and on, and on and on.
Boomer lives in a cold area, so last year we talked him into doing a cold weather test, using magnum primers and standard primers, in various rifles and some using ball powder and even a big magnum with ball powder.
I have taken the liberty to repost the results of his tests, done a year ago.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1042057-Cold-Weather-Primer-Test
Here are the results of his test.
So I'll start with the test parameters. What I was looking for was ignition problems, differences in average velocities, and differences in extreme spread. To ensure it would be the primers that resulted in velocity variations, I took the trouble to keep bullet and case weight to within a quarter a grain for each 5 round group. All of the cases were trimmed and chamfered, and the primer pockets were uniformed and the flash holes uniformed and de-burred. I wanted to test both ball and extruded powders, both fast and slow burning powder, in small, medium, and large capacity cartridges.
The test did not go without a few hitches. The first problem was that the Oehler P-35 didn't read the bullets fired from my SAKO .222 magnum, which was disappointing, so there is no .222 Magnum data to report. The Chronograph failed to read one of the magnum primer loads in the .30/06 and failed to read a magnum primer load in the .458. The .270 data showed lower velocities than I would have expected for a 130 gr bullet, running in the mid 2800s then the first 3 magnum round had little spread, but the last two increased the ES to 180 fps!!?? I hadn't worked up the load however, but Bruce wanted me to have the test include 60 grs of H-4831 under a 130, so that's what I put together.
Here are the results minus the .222 Magnum . . .
.270 Winchester
Ruger Hawkeye 22 inch barrel
Winchester brass
Winchester PP bullets
60.0 gr H-4831SC
CCI LR BR-2 Primers....................Remington 9.5M LR Primers
2837..........................................2841
2830..........................................2840
2833..........................................2842
2793..........................................2953
2814..........................................2772
Average 2821, ES 44...................Average 2849, ES 181
.30/30 Winchester
Winchester 94 NWT Commemorative 24"
Winchester brass
170 gr bullets, unknown make
30.0 grs IMR 3031
CCI LR BR-2 Primers....................Remington 9.5M LR Primers
2070..........................................2026
2065..........................................2052
2021..........................................2028
2044..........................................2087
2071..........................................2052
Average 2054 ES 50....................Average 2049 ES 61
.30/06 Springfield
Brno ZG-47 24" barrel
Remington brass
180 gr Sierra BT
58.0 grs H-100|V
CCI LR BR-2 Primers....................Remington 9.5M LR Primers
2775..........................................2768
2756..........................................2783
2827..........................................2773
2758..........................................2764
2727..........................................0000
Average 2768 ES 100..................Average 2772 ES 19
.375 Ultramag
Brno 602 22" barrel
Remington brass
270 gr Hornady Interlock
92.0 grs H-100V
CCI LR BR-2 Primers....................Remington 9.5M LR Primers
2948..........................................3015
2967..........................................2991
2973..........................................2976
2923..........................................2983
3012..........................................2963
Average 2964 ES 89...................Average 2986 ES 52
.458 Winchester
Winchester M-70 Express 21" barrel
Winchester brass
500 gr Matrix
76.0 grs H-335
CCI LR BR-2 Primers................... Remington 9.5M LR Primers
2059..........................................2003
2097..........................................2066
2113..........................................2067
2054..........................................2074
2091..........................................0000
Average 2082 ES 59...................Average 2052 ES 71
So that's it. Some of the readings such as the last two magnum primer velocities in the .270 make me wonder if a combination of the low morning light and the atmosphere full of ice crystals didn't produce some false readings. Perhaps that was the reason for the lack of readings with the .222 magnum, and the missing reading in the .30/06 and the .458. Anyway, its interesting stuff, and I think it shows that although I still prefer to use magnum primers, there is no practical ballistic advantage in doing so. I was really surprised by the .458 results, as the combination of ball powder, a powder charge greater than 50 grs, and extreme cold should have made magnum primers a distinct advantage over standard primers. I did not observe any hang fires in the course of this test
--You have to use magnum primers with ball powder.
You have to use magnum primers in cold weather.
You have to use magnum primers in big magnum rifles, for sure with ball powder and of course a big magnum, in the cold, with ball powder!
You have to work up your load again when you change to a magnum powder, and on, and on and on.
Boomer lives in a cold area, so last year we talked him into doing a cold weather test, using magnum primers and standard primers, in various rifles and some using ball powder and even a big magnum with ball powder.
I have taken the liberty to repost the results of his tests, done a year ago.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1042057-Cold-Weather-Primer-Test
Here are the results of his test.
So I'll start with the test parameters. What I was looking for was ignition problems, differences in average velocities, and differences in extreme spread. To ensure it would be the primers that resulted in velocity variations, I took the trouble to keep bullet and case weight to within a quarter a grain for each 5 round group. All of the cases were trimmed and chamfered, and the primer pockets were uniformed and the flash holes uniformed and de-burred. I wanted to test both ball and extruded powders, both fast and slow burning powder, in small, medium, and large capacity cartridges.
The test did not go without a few hitches. The first problem was that the Oehler P-35 didn't read the bullets fired from my SAKO .222 magnum, which was disappointing, so there is no .222 Magnum data to report. The Chronograph failed to read one of the magnum primer loads in the .30/06 and failed to read a magnum primer load in the .458. The .270 data showed lower velocities than I would have expected for a 130 gr bullet, running in the mid 2800s then the first 3 magnum round had little spread, but the last two increased the ES to 180 fps!!?? I hadn't worked up the load however, but Bruce wanted me to have the test include 60 grs of H-4831 under a 130, so that's what I put together.
Here are the results minus the .222 Magnum . . .
.270 Winchester
Ruger Hawkeye 22 inch barrel
Winchester brass
Winchester PP bullets
60.0 gr H-4831SC
CCI LR BR-2 Primers....................Remington 9.5M LR Primers
2837..........................................2841
2830..........................................2840
2833..........................................2842
2793..........................................2953
2814..........................................2772
Average 2821, ES 44...................Average 2849, ES 181
.30/30 Winchester
Winchester 94 NWT Commemorative 24"
Winchester brass
170 gr bullets, unknown make
30.0 grs IMR 3031
CCI LR BR-2 Primers....................Remington 9.5M LR Primers
2070..........................................2026
2065..........................................2052
2021..........................................2028
2044..........................................2087
2071..........................................2052
Average 2054 ES 50....................Average 2049 ES 61
.30/06 Springfield
Brno ZG-47 24" barrel
Remington brass
180 gr Sierra BT
58.0 grs H-100|V
CCI LR BR-2 Primers....................Remington 9.5M LR Primers
2775..........................................2768
2756..........................................2783
2827..........................................2773
2758..........................................2764
2727..........................................0000
Average 2768 ES 100..................Average 2772 ES 19
.375 Ultramag
Brno 602 22" barrel
Remington brass
270 gr Hornady Interlock
92.0 grs H-100V
CCI LR BR-2 Primers....................Remington 9.5M LR Primers
2948..........................................3015
2967..........................................2991
2973..........................................2976
2923..........................................2983
3012..........................................2963
Average 2964 ES 89...................Average 2986 ES 52
.458 Winchester
Winchester M-70 Express 21" barrel
Winchester brass
500 gr Matrix
76.0 grs H-335
CCI LR BR-2 Primers................... Remington 9.5M LR Primers
2059..........................................2003
2097..........................................2066
2113..........................................2067
2054..........................................2074
2091..........................................0000
Average 2082 ES 59...................Average 2052 ES 71
So that's it. Some of the readings such as the last two magnum primer velocities in the .270 make me wonder if a combination of the low morning light and the atmosphere full of ice crystals didn't produce some false readings. Perhaps that was the reason for the lack of readings with the .222 magnum, and the missing reading in the .30/06 and the .458. Anyway, its interesting stuff, and I think it shows that although I still prefer to use magnum primers, there is no practical ballistic advantage in doing so. I was really surprised by the .458 results, as the combination of ball powder, a powder charge greater than 50 grs, and extreme cold should have made magnum primers a distinct advantage over standard primers. I did not observe any hang fires in the course of this test
Take notice of the flash photography of the primers being fired at the links below, pay close attention to the Remington 7 1/2 and 9 1/2 photos, they are "NOT" called magnum primers but many people call them "baby flamethrowers. Remington ran our American Lake City Army Ammunition Plant from 1941 until 1982 and much of this ammunition was loaded with Winchester ball powders. The point being Remington had to light off harder to ignite Winchester double base powder that had more deterrent coating than single base powders at Lake City. And their primers reflect this and live up to their "baby flamethrower" name, but still not called a magnum primer.
The Rifleman's Journal
A Match Primer Study in the 30-06 Cartridge
By Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.########.com/2009/06/primers-large-rifle-primer-study.html
The Rifleman's Journal
A Match Primer Study in the 6BR Cartridge
By Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.########.com/2009/06/primers-small-rifle-primer-study.html
The Rifleman's Journal
A Match Primer Study in the 30-06 Cartridge
By Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.########.com/2009/06/primers-large-rifle-primer-study.html
The Rifleman's Journal
A Match Primer Study in the 6BR Cartridge
By Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.########.com/2009/06/primers-small-rifle-primer-study.html
