Make My Shotgun Longer?
- Thread starter PepeLapiu
- Start date
You are correct. With the stock folded, the action fully opened and the forend pulled back, the gun will be 23.5 inch long.
But a pump shotgun can not be fired with the action open.
You must measure the overall lenght when the gun is made to be fired. That is when the forend pushed forward and the light extending the overall lenght to 26 or 27 inch.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Ok, well not to complicate matters, but how long is the grizzly now? More than 660mm?
The definition of restricted does state that the firearms must be able to be fired at a length less than 660. With the action open it cant be fired so you should be fine.
The other problem is that the definition of PROHIBITED does not include a requirement for it to be fired. It is an open debate thay only a judge can answer as to whether substituting factory components meets the definition of "any other alteration" to qualify for prohib status.
As it is right now:
- solid factory stock, as it came from store - 33 inch
- with folding stock extended, bolt open - 34 inch
- with folding stock folded, bolt open, and forend/light retracted - 23.5 inch
- with folding so stock folded, bolt closed, and forend/light extended - 26 to 27 inch
Nothing in the prohibited class applies to my gun.
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Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Have you read the requirement for prohib?
Criminal code.
So your firearm is currently 33 inch. By switching the stock you will have shortened by "any other alteration" such that it is BOTH less than 660mm with the action open AND has a barrel less than 457mm.
ANY...OTHER...ALTERATION.
The only way what you propose is NOT prohibited, is if a judge believes that switching parts is substantially and significantly different than modifying the parts that are already there. Yes we could argue that either way. I am not trying to tell you your gun is prohibited. Just that only thing between you and your gun being deemed prohibited is a judge's very narrow interpretation of a dictionary with little guidance. If you happen to cross paths with a cop who sees no reason to give you the benefit of the doubt, you WILL get a date with a judge.
IF I were a judge, I would have no trouble determining that if switching a part has the same effect as cutting one, then it clearly falls within the intent of the prohibition.
But then If I were a judge, I would have struck down our classification system a long time ago.
Dexter Morgan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I don't know where this "distance to muzzle" keeps coming from.
But it certainly didn't come from any Canadian law. American maybe?
If you want to use an international standard; Use the IPSC measuring technique.
They have strict rules on overall length for open-class shotguns. They use a wooden box 52" long, that the gun must fit into.
You should build a wooden box with an internal length of 26". If your shotgun won't fit into the box, it's non-restricted.
But it certainly didn't come from any Canadian law. American maybe?
If you want to use an international standard; Use the IPSC measuring technique.
They have strict rules on overall length for open-class shotguns. They use a wooden box 52" long, that the gun must fit into.
You should build a wooden box with an internal length of 26". If your shotgun won't fit into the box, it's non-restricted.
I'm sorry but that's not quite how it works.
I have a Kel-Tec Sub-2000. When folded, it measures only 20 inch long. Yet it's not restricted because it can't be fired in the folded position. In the folded position, it's just a useless paperweight
It was legally purchased in Canada as unrestricted.
It's the same for mine and the changes I plan to make on it. It would fit in a 26 inch wooden box when folded with the action opened. But that doesn't count a restricted since it can't be fired with the action opened.
However, Cameron makes a good point. It's apparently okay if the gun is shorter than 26 inch in a folded non firing configuration. But apparently only if it was purchased that way.
Stupid laws. So my folded Sub-2000 is non-restricted at 20 inch but my folded 870 is prohibited at 23.5 inch because I switched around parts instead of buying it that way......
Dexter Morgan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yes it is.
Go back and read what I posted. It says "The gun is in the fully loaded and ready condition."
So a Sub-2000 would need to be unfolded to be checked inside the box.
Same with your shotgun. Will it fit into a 26" box in it's ready condition?
snip...
Be careful about following the masses. Sometimes the S is silent.
The "S" is silent?? One "s"? or all of them? So then it would be "Be careful about following the "mae"?
Yup, stole that one from an other member here.
You should give it back!
You are mixing up range rules and the law. The law makes no mention of 'ready condition'.
Here is the law in question:
A restricted firearm is (...) (c) a firearm that is designed or adapted to be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660 mm by folding, telescoping or otherwise
My firearm can not be fired with the action opened. That is the only time when the gun would be shorter than 26 inch, and in that configuration, the gun can't be fired.
However as Cameron pointed out, the description for prohibited is what might get me here. So the gun likely would be rules as not a restricted, but ruled as a prohibited.
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Dexter Morgan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yeah, I know that. That's in my original post as well.
The Canadian law just says; "Length". Nothing else.
If you ever ended up in court;
You would likely need to describe how you determined the overall length of your gun.
Demonstrating that it can/cannot fit into a certain size of box is an accepted standard for international competition,
and would likely stand up to any cross-examination by the Crown.
I wouldn't need to explain how I measure overall lenght. The wording is pretty simple and straight forward. For the section of the law that pertains to restricted guns, you measure the overall lenght of the gun in a state in which it can be fired.
But here is what's really stupid.
So I have a Grizzly shotgun that is 33 inch long with a 12 inch barrel on it. Since it came tgat way from the factory, it's unrestricted.
But I may choose to change tge stock to a Hogue stock with shorter LOP. Or I may just decide to change the recoil pad on the stock for a thinner one. But doing so would make the gun shorter, even if it's only by 1/2 inch or so. And by the letter of the law that unrestricted gun suddenly becomes a prohibited weapon of mass destruction.
So I change to stock to a Hogue stock with shorter LOP. And than I sell the gun to you. And you don't even know that the stock is aftermarket, thus making the gun a prohibited one.
Still, you are a criminal in possession of a prohibited weapon.
And we need more of these really really stupid laws?
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
And to be clear, my point is that both Restricted and Prohibited included open ended weasel words.
Restricted, "reduced by folding, telescoping, or otherwise"
Prohibited, "adapted by sawing, cutting, or any other alteration"
I am not saying that swapping factory parts DEFINITELY meets these requirements, just that so far the courts have not had to interpret them, and it COULD be an issue.
Indeed. The Liberals are droning on and on about how the RCMP need to be the ones classifying firearms, cause they are experts.
What we really need, is a system of classification that is simple enough for everyone to be able to easily apply for themselves, and is not based on impossible to know or irrelevant non technical considerations, like how it was made, by who, or why.
When you boil it down to the bare facts, you realize that the only classification system that we really need is one that says what is and isnt a gun.
Okay. I though I would update you on my little project.
First, I made a mistake earlier. I recalled that my shotgun is 33 inch long with the factory stock installed and the 12 inch barrel on it.
But I checked my bill of sale and it turns out that I bought the gun from Canada Ammo without a stock on it. The stock I have on it now is a Hogue aftermarket stock.
As bough from Canada Ammo the gun had no stock on and it was probably around 20 inch long.
I guess you could probably fire the gun without a stock on. But tgat would likely be rather painful and/or very uncomfortable. So by the letter of the law the gun as as bough from CanAmmo was a restricted gun....if you are dumb enough to try to fire it without a stock on.
Yet based on my bill if sale, CanAmmo sold it to me as non-restricted.
So here is the part of the law that concerns me:
So, it doesn't really matter what I do to my shotgun, what stock I put on it, or what I do with it. According to the letter of the law, my gun is a prohibited weapon of mass destruction if I do any sort of alteration on it.
So let's imagine I take the gun as bough from CanAmmo. And I put a Hogue stock on it. So my shotgun is "a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration"
I think that adding a Hogue stock to my gun qualifies as "any other alteration".
And the law continues "as so adapted (...) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length"
So basically my gun as bough without a stock is non-restricted. Because it's not altered, even though it has a short barrel shorter than 457mm, since it came that way from the manufacturer.
But any alteration I do to it will either result in a gun altered to be less than 660 mm long, or a gun with a barrel shorter than 457mm and a lenght of more than 660mm.
So according to the letter of the law, my gun is only legal as long as I don't put anything on it and fire it without a stock.
If I do so much as putting a pretty pink bow on it, it becomes a prohibited weapon of mass destruction.
Now, a judge might decide that adding a bow or adding a Hogue stock don't qualify as "any other alteration". But that judge would essencially be ignoring the law.
First, I made a mistake earlier. I recalled that my shotgun is 33 inch long with the factory stock installed and the 12 inch barrel on it.
But I checked my bill of sale and it turns out that I bought the gun from Canada Ammo without a stock on it. The stock I have on it now is a Hogue aftermarket stock.
As bough from Canada Ammo the gun had no stock on and it was probably around 20 inch long.
I guess you could probably fire the gun without a stock on. But tgat would likely be rather painful and/or very uncomfortable. So by the letter of the law the gun as as bough from CanAmmo was a restricted gun....if you are dumb enough to try to fire it without a stock on.
Yet based on my bill if sale, CanAmmo sold it to me as non-restricted.
So here is the part of the law that concerns me:
So, it doesn't really matter what I do to my shotgun, what stock I put on it, or what I do with it. According to the letter of the law, my gun is a prohibited weapon of mass destruction if I do any sort of alteration on it.
So let's imagine I take the gun as bough from CanAmmo. And I put a Hogue stock on it. So my shotgun is "a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration"
I think that adding a Hogue stock to my gun qualifies as "any other alteration".
And the law continues "as so adapted (...) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length"
So basically my gun as bough without a stock is non-restricted. Because it's not altered, even though it has a short barrel shorter than 457mm, since it came that way from the manufacturer.
But any alteration I do to it will either result in a gun altered to be less than 660 mm long, or a gun with a barrel shorter than 457mm and a lenght of more than 660mm.
So according to the letter of the law, my gun is only legal as long as I don't put anything on it and fire it without a stock.
If I do so much as putting a pretty pink bow on it, it becomes a prohibited weapon of mass destruction.
Now, a judge might decide that adding a bow or adding a Hogue stock don't qualify as "any other alteration". But that judge would essencially be ignoring the law.
