making a shotgun chamber adapter from a chopped .22LR barrel

[SandRoad]

I guess with the interpretation, or rather, lack of one, an officer/crown will simply charge you and let you argue it in front of a judge to figure it out. In the mean time, you have a criminal charge pending against you.

It is also not just a matter of legal or not, but unrestricted, restricted or prohibited classification.

• Any barrel under 105mm then it is clearly a prohibited device. (where does it specify "handgun" or has to have a chamber ??)
  
  
• Cutting ANY "barrel" below the specified legal unrestricted length is also illegal unless it is already a restricted firearm.
  
  
• A short adaptor would be legal, unrestricted, if MANUFACTURED to a length shorter than 18" and above 105mm
  
  
• Nowhere in the Act (that I could find) does it say a barrel has to be PART of any firearm or FIT any particular firearm.

 

[tiriaq]

CC 84(1)b.

 

[manbearpig]

this sounds like one of those cases where it may be legal but there is a chance you may be crucified by some overzealous cops/prosecutors and our draconian gun laws. not worth it IMO.

may i humbly suggest that if you want something like this, you go the 100% safe route and just buy something like the Rossi Trifecta or Youth Combo. youll get a single shot shotgun, rimfire (and possibly .44 mag or .243 depending on the combo you choose), and there will be no bubbafication/legal risk/safety risk at all.

 

[AManWithAGun]

Another way of looking at it: let's say I cut up to 105mm off a long barrel (which has been done countless times by firearm owners), is that cutoff piece considered a barrel with any legal or firearm classification issues associated with it ?

If the answer is yes, I guess already have a problem just by cutting a piece off the existing barrel, and I think making a chamber adapter out of it will not make things worse or break new laws.

If the answer is no, well then I'm just manufacturing a chamber adapter from a non-barrel metal tube.

 

[tiriaq]

CC 84(1)b.

 

[Mudpuppy]

A short handgun barrel is a prohibited device.
A shotgun - or other longarm with the barrel cut below the legal minimum is a prohibited firearm. But a cut barrel is not a prohibited device; that only applies if it is a handgun barrel.
This has nothing to do with adapters that fit inside another barrel, regardless of length or caliber.
A piece of barrel under 105mm is not a prohibited device unless it is a handgun barrel.

tiriaq has it right.

Another way of looking at it: let's say I cut up to 105mm off a long barrel (which has been done countless times by firearm owners), is that cutoff piece considered a barrel with any legal or firearm classification issues associated with it ?

No because as it has been posted only pieces of handgun barrels can be classed as prohibited. There are no rules regarding long arm barrel cutoffs and since your cutoff piece is not capable of chambering and discharging ammunition it is just a metal tube.
The only way you could get into trouble with your cut off piece is if you thread and chamber this barrel stub to fit the existing, or another firearm. Then you will have created a shorter barrel by modifying an existing barrel and the firearm with that barrel attached is "deemed to be prohibited"

In the case of making the adapter it is not in any way "attached" to a frame or receiver and is therefore not capable of chambering and discharging ammunition. In simple terms because the adapter is never really attached to the "firearm" which is legally the frame or receiver, it is not a barrel.

If the answer is no, well then I'm just manufacturing a chamber adapter from a non-barrel metal tube.

You got it, don't you love our gun laws!!

 

[SandRoad]

tiriaq has it right.


No because as it has been posted only pieces of handgun barrels can be classed as prohibited. There are no rules regarding long arm barrel cutoffs and since your cutoff piece is not capable of chambering and discharging ammunition it is just a metal tube.

However it is still a barrel. What if you had a 10 foot blank barrel and cut it up into shorter pieces, would they still not be BARRELS? The LEGAL answer is MAYBE because "barrel" is not specifically defined in the FA or Regulations. So it would be up to you versus the courts to decide.

The only way you could get into trouble with your cut off piece is if you thread and chamber this barrel stub to fit the existing, or another firearm. Then you will have created a shorter barrel by modifying an existing barrel and the firearm with that barrel attached is "deemed to be prohibited"

There is no requirement in the FA that a barrel has to be functional, just as a gun doesn't have to be functional to still be classed as a firearm. Meaning if you are in illegal possession of it you can be charged.

In the case of making the adapter it is not in any way "attached" to a frame or receiver and is therefore not capable of chambering and discharging ammunition. In simple terms because the adaptor is never really attached to the "firearm" which is legally the frame or receiver, it is not a barrel.

You got it, don't you love our gun laws!!

Irrelevant if it is attached or not, it is still a barrel. If it was designed at some point to discharge a projectile, OR CAN BE MODIFIED to discharge a projectile, then it is a barrel. (The RCMP have used the MODIFIED argument in court many times) There is also the INTENDED USE part of the law. If you intend to use it as a barrel, then it reinforces the argument it is a barrel.


Bottom line.
- If you cut off a piece of 22 barrel that is between 106 and 18" what is that classified as?
- Are you as an individual allowed to manufacture a restricted length barrel? Clearly, cutting a non-restricted barrel below 18" makes the FIREARM prohibited, but what of the barrel?
- It is a barrel without question and you are manufacturing a barrel. Are you licensed as a manufacturer to make restricted length barrels?
- I guess it comes down to it's intended use and the class, type of firearm and overall length of the gun.

I would make sure that the total length from the back of the stock to the front of the adaptor is more than 660 mm, because that way you don't have a firearm that can easily be converted from below to above 660mm. (since the adaptor is not permanently attached). This was an issue with folding stocks on the short barrelled shotguns. If you could easily convert from above/below 660mm, then it is clearly prohibited. However if you had a pistol grip, that took time (gunsmithing) to replace, then it is OK to be under 660mm as long as you had a FACTORY MANUFACTURED barrel.

If you are firing 22's from it, then the shotgun barrel might not count in the length. It is a barrel, but in firing 22's it is just a barrel shroud.

Lots of questions, but NO good answers.

 

[762shooter]

Skipping over the legal arguments and the can't hit anything arguments (altho all good points) and getting back to technical aspects.... You would turn a section at the front and back of the adapter to a cylinder (no taper), then you would turn two inserts (using a 4 jaw chuck) with an eccentric hole that will press fit on to the front and back of the adapter. The offset of the holes will be enough to allow the firing pin to strike the cartridge rim. The outside diameter of the two inserts is a loose fit in the shotgun barrel, you cut grooves in each to accommodate an o-ring that will center the adapter in the shotgun barrel.

It could be fun but not likely worth the effort.

 

[Mudpuppy]

However it is still a barrel. What if you had a 10 foot blank barrel and cut it up into shorter pieces, would they still not be BARRELS?

Until it is capable of chambering and discharging ammunition it is NOT A BARREL it is simply a steel tube. Call the firearms techs at the CFC and they will tell you the same thing.
All the pieces from the 10 foot long cut piece are just cut metal tubes, nothing else.

There is no requirement in the FA that a barrel has to be functional

A barrel is defined in the legislation as being capable of chambering and discharging ammunition. Again call the CFC firearms techs for confirmation.

Bottom line.
- If you cut off a piece of 22 barrel that is between 106 and 18" what is that classified as?

As long as it is from a RIFLE barrel it is just a piece of metal

- Are you as an individual allowed to manufacture a restricted length barrel?

Yes, and you can make as many as you want, as you are making firearm parts and not firearms, so no firearms manufacturing license is required.

Clearly, cutting a non-restricted barrel below 18" makes the FIREARM prohibited, but what of the barrel?

There is no legislation regarding long arm barrels that defines the cut down barrel as being prohibited, this type of legislation only exists for handgun barrels. It is the act of putting the cut down barrel on a firearm that makes the firearm "deemed to be prohibited".

- It is a barrel without question and you are manufacturing a barrel. Are you licensed as a manufacturer to make restricted length barrels?

As stated above it is not a barrel and you don't need a manufacturing license to make them.

This was an issue with folding stocks on the short barrelled shotguns.

This issue was in regards to the Overall Length (OAL) of the firearm, OAL requirements are also clearly defined and have nothing to do with the barrel length requirements.


Clear as mud now?

 

[trevj]

What is reasonably accurate here ?

I'm not expecting good accuracy. If I can get accuracy of a cheap handgun with a 6-inch barrel, I'd consider it a success. Yes the adapter is not a good barrel and probably doesn't fit inside shotgun barrel tightly enough for accurate shooting, but I hope that would be offset by the longer sight radius and heavier gun and shooting like a rifle.

With regards to the Crosno adapter.

Reasonably accurate is that the guys are willing to shoot the rimfire version of whatever their game is (Silhouette, Shuetzen, etc.) with a Crosno adapter, and not feel that they are at a disadvantage.

Just throwing that out there as an example of a mounting system that will get you as good accuracy as you can get from the barrel length you have.

Is the bore centered on the barrel? I picked up the cut up remains of several destroyed Cooeys, and most if not all the barrel segments were off center. Some by a lot. Apparently not uncommon, from what I discovered at the time. Anyways, I figure if you are going to go to the trouble, you may as well try to get as good results as you can. With a reread of the original post, what comes to mind is to run the chamber deeper, the rim recess deeper, and make a plug to act as firing pin with either a double pin or just a single one on the front end of the plug. I think I'd include a ring cut around it for an O ring or some other mean of friction to keep it from falling out at random. Making an adapter that has a working extractor is more of a machine shop project.

Cheers
Trev

 

[lucky07]

I've got a really good idea that would create a firing pin that would allow the insert to be centered as well as a extractor no matter how recessed the base of the case is. It's a little complicated tho. If anyone is curious I can make an attempt at explain it, or try and draw pictures somehow.

 

[tiriaq]

lucky07 - If you have a scanner, you could sketch your idea, and post the sketch.

Using a little plug insert to allow a centerfire firing pin to fire a rimfire cartridge in an adapter is common. With an O-ring, it won't fall out and get lost. Downside to this sort of insert is that it makes the adapter all that much slower to reload. I have a .22/.223 inset like this. Also have a .32ACP/.308 insert. The .32 primer is struck by the cf firing pin.
The insert barrels used in quality European arms have the chamber offset, The extra room created by the offset chamber is used to install an extractor which is engaged by the centerfire extractor. These inserts are indexed, and lock in place, so zeroing is not an ongoing struggle.

 

[lucky07]

Obviously my distances and such aren't that great ... MS Paint isn't exactly known for it's precision. lol

Just thought of another good way but it's a helluvalot more complicated.

 

[762shooter]

Is the bore centered on the barrel? I picked up the cut up remains of several destroyed Cooeys, and most if not all the barrel segments were off center. Some by a lot. Apparently not uncommon, from what I discovered at the time.
Cheers Trev

Yes, I've heard about eccentrically bored barrels, too. A friend cut a few inches off the barrel of a Smith and Wesson rifle (Howa) and found it to be visibly off center. I've often wondered if this is why some barrels are more prone than others to wander when they heat up.

 

[SandRoad]

Seems I was mistaken on a few points. however.........

There is no legislation regarding long arm barrels that defines the cut down barrel as being prohibited, this type of legislation only exists for handgun barrels. It is the act of putting the cut down barrel on a firearm that makes the firearm "deemed to be prohibited".

``prohibited firearm'' means
(a) a handgun that
(i) has a barrel equal to or less than 105 mm in length, or
(ii) is designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge,

but does not include any such handgun that is prescribed, where the handgun is for use in international sporting competitions governed by the rules of the International Shooting Union,


(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(i) is less than 660 mm in length, or
(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length,

This issue was in regards to the Overall Length (OAL) of the firearm, OAL requirements are also clearly defined and have nothing to do with the barrel length requirements.

`restricted firearm'' means
(a) a handgun that is not a prohibited firearm,
(b) a firearm that
(i) is not a prohibited firearm,
(ii) has a barrel less than 470 mm in length, and
(iii) is capable of discharging centre-fire ammunition in a semi-automatic manner,
(c) a firearm that is designed or adapted to be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660 mm by folding, telescoping or otherwise, or



(2) For the purposes of this Part, the length of a barrel of a firearm is
(a) in the case of a revolver, the distance from the muzzle of the barrel to the breach end immediately in front of the cylinder, and
(b) in any other case, the distance from the muzzle of the barrel to and including the chamber,
but does not include the length of any component, part or accessory including any component, part or accessory designed or intended to suppress the muzzle flash or reduce recoil.

Clear as mud now?

The above paragraphs are from CC 84(1)b. http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2328365&Language=e&Mode=1&File=158

As mentioned, there is a potential exception where a shotgun with a pistol grip can have a manufactured short barrel and be under 660mm overall lenght. There was a letter from the RCMP (that nobody can post anymore) that says it is OK, provided the change of the pistol grip requires effort/time/gunsmithing and not a quick folding or otherwise quick and easy shortening. Removing/installing an adaptor from a shotgun barrel would likely fall under the "quick change" OAL length rule where it goes from above to below 660mm.
However this has never been tested in court and may or may not stand up. So just make sure your stock plus adaptor are over 660mm

 

[gunzik]

Very nice, lucky07!

As far as short barrel accuracy goes, my German Walther TPH with a 2 3/4 inch barrel (sound like a familiar dimension?) shoots 2 inch groups offhand at 15 meters. Just do a good job crowning your insert and you'll probably be favorably surprised. It isn't going to get you 18" barrel accuracy until you put in (and support) an 18" barrel, but my grandpa's .22 inserts were 2 3/4 shotshell sized, offset, and I remember the dead bunnies. One neat hole in their little heads. Those rifled shotshell adaptors must be quite plentiful, I know most of the hunters in our (European) village had them. Probably made by a local.

Of course, the last "legal hurdle" is that the barrel shroud / 12 guage barrel will also act to reduce the noise of the discharged .22 cartridge. I'm not sure how many dB of noise reduction you'll enjoy, but as others have pointed out, there are pointy-headed people everywhere.

I'd go ahead and have some fun with this. If I could ever get the junk out of my shop and into a dumpster so I can reach my equipment, I'll post a picture. No dead bunnies though.

But not with a pistol barrel. Thanks for that, rifle barrel it is.

On the same theme: making a replacement barrel for a prohibited handgun would necessitate cutting down barrel stock to prohibited size. I guess I'd better start with a rifle barrel then, and not cut / turn down another pistol barrel. That would, by the thread of logic I see here and strongly agree with, be an offense.

Happy machining!

 

[Mudpuppy]

``prohibited firearm'' means
The above paragraphs are from CC 84(1)b. http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2328365&Language=e&Mode=1&File=158

And none of this means anything in regards to a chamber adapter as it IS NOT A BARREL UNDER THE LAW. if you don't believe this call the CFC and ask to speak to a firearms tech, that's where I ask my questions and get answers from. You are reading the laws but not understanding them.

 

[Mudpuppy]

On the same theme: making a replacement barrel for a prohibited handgun would necessitate cutting down barrel stock to prohibited size. I guess I'd better start with a rifle barrel then, and not cut / turn down another pistol barrel. That would, by the thread of logic I see here and strongly agree with, be an offense.

Happy machining!

If you are making the new barrel from a barrel blank it is not an issue as the blank is not a barrel under the law, just a metal tube. So you can use a pistol barrel blank.

You are correct that using a cutoff piece of an existing pistol barrel could lead to legal problems.

 

[gunzik]

If you are making the new barrel from a barrel blank it is not an issue as the blank is not a barrel under the law, just a metal tube. So you can use a pistol barrel blank.

You are correct that using a cutoff piece of an existing pistol barrel could lead to legal problems.

Thanks, Mudpuppy. Old pistol barrels are abundant, and are free (or extremely cheap) when they are replaced and discarded. Sadly, it appears cheap and free could be more expensive than planned. It's nicer to work with a new barrel blank anyway, even though ecologically, we should recycle...

Happy machining!

 

[mbogo3]

On some of the European adapters they had drilled 4 holes at the end of the shotgun shell so the .22 barrel inside could be adjusted for POI threaded grub screws.Harold