Making my 308 reloads better part 2

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MartyK2500

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From the time i first started my thread :

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1536957-Next-step-for-precision-308-loading


Lots of things have changed.
In fact i feel more and more confident in my process, just a few details that still do not feel right.
I am getting more and more 1/2 moa 5 shot groups, just trying to get it more consistent, although i feel my rifle or shooter might be the limiting factor at some point.
Rifle is a savage 10TR in an MDT ESS chassis, which is having it's recoil lug bedded tomorrow as there seems to be movement in there.
My end game goal is having a target, with 5 groups with each 5 shots, all under 1/2 moa. Then i will stop trying to better my reload and start practice positional shooting with bags.

Here is my full process, with tools and components used. Press is a Lee Challenger with breachlock bushings.
I repeat this every firings, even if i could skip a few steps i prefer to start it over every firings.
1. Decap
2. Bump the shoulders back 2 thous, using Redding body die, and RCBS precision MIC for measurments. Also have Forster 308 GO gauge to compare results. Brass is Lapua which is now 2F but has started as 0F with me.
3. Stainless Steel wet tumble
4. Anneal. I use annealeez machine with 650F tempilac 1/4'' under the shoulders
5. Neck size. Lee collet die.
6. Trim. Forster trimming station, power drill adapter and 3 in 1 trimmer head.
7. Neck turn. A second forster trimming station. Power drill adapter, forster 308 neck turning head and neck turning pilot.
8. Priming. Lee handheld ergo prime. CCI BR2 primers.
9. Powdering. AD FX120 with auto trickle. No fluorescent lighting or cell phones close. Varget powder used.
10. Bullet seating, Forster adjustable micro seating die, 175gr SMK. Tools used to determine OAL are hornady OAL gauge tool, used along a special 308 casing and hornady bullet comparator. So i use Ogive measurments for better consistency.

If there are any comments on how the process can be bettered please do not hesitate to comment.
I used to dislike reloading, but have found myself liking to invest my time on precision reloading and see actual results on paper. I still dislike pistol reloading on my dillon though, feels too robotic.

My main concerns focus around the neck i would say.
Neck sizing : Even though i have turned neck down to 13 thous on previous firings, 1 out of 2 casings is hard to neck size. For the hard ones i got to go gradually as if i decide to go in 1 shot, i crush casings.
Neck turning : The pilot for neck turning fits too tight in my necks. I either got to torque it down i put some case lube inside necks. Do you have to lube pilot during this process?
Bullet seating : Torque required can vary a few in/lbs between casings to seat bullet. Sometimes minimal sometimes more drastic. When i seat bullets and put them in my ammo plastic cases, i even sort them by felt torque felt to seat bullets. Since i do that my groups have had a positive impact on paper, but i am sure a chrony would disagree and tension would need to be uniformed some way. If i reload speedily without caring you cannot feel it, but if you take your time you feel different resistance. Also have to mention i am at 43.3gr Varget with 2.735'' OAL, resistance might be from compressing powder?

Cheers!
 
What velocities and spread are you getting? Having a consistent muzzle velocity is more beneficial then try to shrink your groups by a 1/10th of an inch.
 
I’ve been shooting 308 the past few days and in spite of the nasty weather, my last five groups each went under a dime at 100M using two different bullets with some different charge weights. I am not doing nearly the stuff you are to prep brass. Lapua, no turning of necks, no weight sort, anneal after 6-7 reloads, no tumbling... The most obvious difference that comes to mind is that this rifle is NOT a factory Savage 10TR action/barrel. Second, I shoot a fair bit...maybe only a couple of groups each trip to the Range, but I go there 4-5 times a week. It could be that you are overthinking your “poccess” and ignoring the potential of the rifle ... or that more practice with that particular rig will improve things?

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Lets assume your rifle/bases/rings/scope are all 100%.
A couple things in your routine to consider - first, can you get a neck turning pilot 1-2 thou less in diameter? that may make it easier... also, when i turn, if i have to use lube, the cases get tumbled/cleaned again - the lube used in turning will certainly affect bullet seating friction, which 'may' affect results on paper...
If i re-tumble, i will run thru the collet die to ensure the necks are 100% concentric. My collet is set so i cam-over, that way i know its the same neck squeeze every stroke.
You should have the same seating pressure on every bullet, if not, there is a reason for it -
If your groups don't change, try a different primer. All my rifles shot SMK's the best at 2.8-2.81 COAL, perhaps try unless you have a real short throat. In time, seating that deep that you are now, you may find yourself dealing with donuts
I did use 175smk's exclusively, great bullet. The TMK worked even better for me in my rifles too....then i tried Berger hybrids, 168... lets just say the smk/tmk's are now collecting dust or used for plinking - i get consistent 1/2"-3/4 groups at 200yds now with Berger 168's.
Lastly, not all rifles are tack drivers - thats a fact. Accept it if it happens. I have had two that couldn't get to where i was happy (despite trying countless load combos), so i had a good barrel put on and that usually solved that issue.

Now i will add that i don't compete, never have, prob won't.... i just shoot for my own personal thrills chasing small groups, so take my advice with a grain of salt!
 
Alpheus, haven't had a chance to chrony yet.
I will next weekend once i get my rifle back, gone to have recoil lug devcon bedded.
As mentionned in the MDT dealer forums, savage recoil lug does not make contact in chassis or very little, and cerakote start wearing where action touches chassis.

JEC, right now i trust the process fairly well.
The fact that my neck sizing and pilot of neck turning give that much resistance, is the thing that is concerning me as i know neck tension is not uniform, and that is bugging me to the point that i must find a solution.
As far as the shooter go, i am far from the best i must imagine, but am also a bit overconfident as i tend to keep myself out of the equation more often than not.
My experience with rifles is somewhat limited. First year shooting a rifle (800+ 308 rounds in my scoped savage setup since may 2017). I do have a good amount of trigger discipline as i have been shooting pistol since 2012, competitively, and never shooting less than 10-12K rounds a year. I do not weight brass cases by the way, just started off by buying 300 brass pieces same lot number, and figured lapua would be consistent enough not to double check them.
I do have targets downstairs that within my 200 first rounds of rifle, i got 5 shot groups of 5 rounds (25 consecutive rounds on target), all within and between 0.5/0.8MOA. That was with FC brass, hornady bullets, and RCBS chargemaster at the time.

ChrisMC, i agree i should have same seating pressure everytime, and that's whats driving me nuts.
I could downsize the pilot to be 1 thou smaller in diameter, but will want to see if anyone else ever had to do this, if not i will be doubting my process.
I also did not mention, when i started with FC cases, i did not have these neck sizing/turning issues. I can whip out my 4F FC brass, they will glide in collet die with no resistance, and then neck turning pilot will go in without resistance. All these ''issues'' started with the use of lapua brass. 13 thou is the thickness of my turned necks.
Edit : Here is my thread concerning OAL, the troat on this savage is very short, no matter how i measure it my SMKs touch the lands at 2.745''.

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1588999-Determining-OAL-308


Donny Fenn, yep i do.
Annealing is fun, i usually have a beer or two and relax while overlooking process. Neck turning, if each time i fire a casing and am able to get some new brass shavings out while neck turning, i see it as something necessary if i want to develop something consistent. I may be wrong.
 
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Perhaps try loading and shooting some loads in brass prepped like this - fired-deprimed-tumbled-collet sized-loaded - and see if the seating pressure is more consistent. Doing this will certainly identify if the turning step is creating the issue

If you get better results seating, but groups are the same, then personally i would seat to 2.80 and try again - this will put the boattail/bearing surface junction slightly above the bottom of the neck - me thinks right now you are below the neck - if no change, try another bullet. Personally i am on the fence thinking this makes a bigger difference than chasing lands WITH THIS BULLET ONLY... my 5R, Sig3000, and Sav LRPV 12 all shot worse when chasing lands using a 175 SMK - load to 2.8ish COAL and the bugholes appeared. I want to say, from memory (may be wrong!lol!) that the ogive measurement was 2.09 using a Sinclair tool.


Here is a nice pic of a 168 smk at the optimal spot:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIGrgLLWsAQJe7t.jpg

I realize your rifle may not allow this due to a short throat, but if it can, try it. When i did this, it took a lot of demons out of my "search for the perfect load" trials with that particular bullet.

You may be at the peak of what this particular barrel / bullet combo can do, but hopefully not.
Again, try some 168 Hybrids before you get set on a load...it may make you say WOW

This is one of the challenges i find addictive!
 
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MartyK2500 said:
Here is my full process, with tools and components used. Press is a Lee Challenger with breachlock bushings.
I repeat this every firings, even if i could skip a few steps i prefer to start it over every firings.
1. Decap
2. Bump the shoulders back 2 thous, using Redding body die, and RCBS precision MIC for measurments. Also have Forster 308 GO gauge to compare results. Brass is Lapua which is now 2F but has started as 0F with me.
3. Stainless Steel wet tumble
4. Anneal. I use annealeez machine with 650F tempilac 1/4'' under the shoulders
5. Neck size. Lee collet die.
6. Trim. Forster trimming station, power drill adapter and 3 in 1 trimmer head.
7. Neck turn. A second forster trimming station. Power drill adapter, forster 308 neck turning head and neck turning pilot.
8. Priming. Lee handheld ergo prime. CCI BR2 primers.
9. Powdering. AD FX120 with auto trickle. No fluorescent lighting or cell phones close. Varget powder used.
10. Bullet seating, Forster adjustable micro seating die, 175gr SMK. Tools used to determine OAL are hornady OAL gauge tool, used along a special 308 casing and hornady bullet comparator. So i use Ogive measurments for better consistency.


Cheers!
Click to expand...

Great process and not dissimilar to mine. A couple of quick thoughts/comments on a couple of your steps:

2. You may not need to bump every firing - less work for both you and on the brass. Confirm with comparator after each firing.

4. Anneal - I have an Annie annealer and anneal after every 2-3 firings - may be able to save yourself some work. I have a comprehensive data card that I use to track each brass batch throughout its lifetime, so I can check to see when each batch was last annealed. Also, your annealer has a pre-programmed capability that I hear works well, so Tempilaq on each annealing cycle is probably not necessary as well.

7. Neck turning - typically done once only on a new batch of brass to uniform the neck wall thickness. Per Zeideker's book - Handloading for Competition - if you're seeing more than 50% of the neck surface getting removed, it may be too much. I would do once only and not as part of full reloading cycle.

10. Seating - looks like a good procedure - are you seating 10 thou off the lands? Use caution when seating right to the lands or jamming into the lands, as there can be a pressure spike.

Also, if you don't have a chronograph, I think this is were it would be beneficial to invest in one as you can see if you have velocity variation. A target Standard Deviation of 10 FPS or lower is the goal (per Litz's books). As you have an expensive annealer, perhaps your budget would support a LabRadar - they're the best!

And finally, I didn't see a concentricity check as part of your final QA/QC procedures. The Hornady concentricity gauge is great (and Sail had them on sale recently as they seem to be clearing all of their Hornady reloading stuff, and I saw one in Whitby for $90). Concentricity tells you a lot about finished round quality - aim for less than 1 thou of runout.

Hope this helps - you're on a great track!
 
Try leaving two of your steps out...do not bump shoulder back or anneal each reload. Neither are necessary so worth giving a try to determine any difference.
My experience shooting sub-1/2 MOA groups is that it took me thousands of rounds to develop the reloading and hold “skills” ... and of course would never have happened without capable barrels.
Here is my reload routine:
* wipe some of the carbon off the neck with case lube in a Kleenex
* insert a nylon brush in the neck, half turn, pull it out
* neck size in Type S Redding sizer die (expander button removed) with bushing to give .002 NK tension
* use Lee hand primer to set CCI-BR 2 primer
* charge with Lyman DPS powder dispenser
* seat with Wilson in-line seater OR Redding seater (both work well - edge to the Wilson)
 
The one step I would suggest you remove is the SS tumbling. Your brass is too clean.

Consider using very fine steel wool to remove the burnt carbon around the neck. A wipe in a tea towel to get rid of any dirt on the case body.

Now continue through your steps and see if that changes your seating pressure. Manually wipe off the case lube used in the body sizing stage. Those who SS wet clean will sometimes use a graphite lube before going to other steps. Brass is sticky... super clean brass can act like glue.

when I tumble, I use walnut... there is enough residue left in the process so I don't need to lube. Or if I just clean with steel wool, the burnt powder in the neck does the same thing.

Try a few cases and see if the seating pressure becomes more consistent.

Jerry
 
chrismc said:
Perhaps try loading and shooting some loads in brass prepped like this - fired-deprimed-tumbled-collet sized-loaded - and see if the seating pressure is more consistent. Doing this will certainly identify if the turning step is creating the issue

If you get better results seating, but groups are the same, then personally i would seat to 2.80 and try again - this will put the boattail/bearing surface junction slightly above the bottom of the neck - me thinks right now you are below the neck - if no change, try another bullet. Personally i am on the fence thinking this makes a bigger difference than chasing lands WITH THIS BULLET ONLY... my 5R, Sig3000, and Sav LRPV 12 all shot worse when chasing lands using a 175 SMK - load to 2.8ish COAL and the bugholes appeared. I want to say, from memory (may be wrong!lol!) that the ogive measurement was 2.09 using a Sinclair tool.


Here is a nice pic of a 168 smk at the optimal spot:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIGrgLLWsAQJe7t.jpg

I realize your rifle may not allow this due to a short throat, but if it can, try it. When i did this, it took a lot of demons out of my "search for the perfect load" trials with that particular bullet.

You may be at the peak of what this particular barrel / bullet combo can do, but hopefully not.
Again, try some 168 Hybrids before you get set on a load...it may make you say WOW

This is one of the challenges i find addictive!
Click to expand...

The challenge sure is addictive!
I can confirm, at 2.735'', the boat tail is under the neck.
if i should load let's say 2.800'', chamber, extract, it will come back out seated back almost up to 2.750''.
Which is why i think hornady match bthp 178gr we're good for me at the start. With it's Ogive, i was touching lands at 2.805'' and was loading at 2.800'' with it.
SMKs act differently

FirearmsEnthusiast
2. My precision MIC and headspace gauge act as a comparator. I bump headspace to 1.628'' when resizing. Fired cases always come back right to 1.630'' exactly. So each time i fire and resize the shoulders are moved back and forward 2 thous.
4. Annealing, you probably think i have a top tof the line annealer. Annealeez is a set of wheels which you can dial in speed, with a propane torch. Pretty much the cheapest commercial annealer out there (500$ CDN shipping and customs included shipped to my place)
7. neck turning, will look more into it. If i remove material everytime, but my end result always ends up in 13 thou exactly, i ''feel'' the need for it although there may be no real need.
10. Seating, i am exatly 10 thou off the lands, when i can. In load development, the higher powder charges force me to seat at lands as bullet won't go any deeper as powder takes more space.

Chronograph, this is my next step. Was supossed to buy a Labradar, but just set myself back. Got an STI 9mm 1911 as i wish to start competing and get involved once more into IPSC. Rifle will take a minor set back while i get my IPSC gear purchased and set up again.
Concentricity gauge, i agree i need the real thing. For now my setup is deplorable. I roll the loaded round on a mirror and look for runnout lol, yes i really need to invest, after all these bucks spent in premium reloading i am well overdue.
Thanks for taking the time to answer as you did in first thread!

JEC
I will look into Redding neck sizing die how they are made, maybe my lee collet die just ain't working for me.
When i do not bump the shoulders after a firing, chambering the round feels a little stiff. With a redding body die it's a quick process and they always chamber effortlessly.
It does seem like annealing may be done after a few firings, i will read up more on it.

Jerry
I believe you might have hit the nail on this one, as far as neck sizing problems go.
Leaving rifle aside, i have a considerable amount of extra torque required to process my 9mm/40SW brass on my dillon 650 since i wet tumble.
I have to lube cases and gum everything up,
When i used to dry tumble using treated corncob and/or walnut media, everything would just glide through.
I had switched for the sake of taking the most lead possible out of my life, but am considering getting a dry tumbler again and try reprocessing 308 brass and see what gives.
Right now my fired cases come out of tumbler, mirror finish inside and outside of case.
 
MartyK2500 said:
I will look into Redding neck sizing die how they are made, maybe my lee collet die just ain't working for me.
When i do not bump the shoulders after a firing, chambering the round feels a little stiff. With a redding body die it's a quick process and they always chamber effortlessly.
It does seem like annealing may be done after a few firings, i will read up more on it.
Click to expand...

If you're looking to replace your Lee collett neck die, I'd probably be willing to take it off your hands (I'm also in the Ottawa area). That way you could put the money toward the Redding neck die you're looking at.

I'm also considering buying a Lab Radar, if that happens I'll let you know. I don't think anyone in the area will use it enough to justify everyone having their own.
 
rkm456 said:
If you're looking to replace your Lee collett neck die, I'd probably be willing to take it off your hands (I'm also in the Ottawa area). That way you could put the money toward the Redding neck die you're looking at.

I'm also considering buying a Lab Radar, if that happens I'll let you know. I don't think anyone in the area will use it enough to justify everyone having their own.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer, my friend actually just got the lab radar himself.
We will be at EOSC next weekend, trying both our MDT chassied rifles and test our new improvements,
As for selling dies it's not something i'm up for just yet, as long as i stick to 308 i will keep all dies i accumulate, now hoping that dry tumbling with media is the cure to my sticky (in dies) brass necks.
 
Got most my stuff from Jerry (Mystic Precision), he replied in this thread.
Send him an email and the die will be cheaper than anywhere else in country.
Same thing for bullets...
 
I hope I am misunderstanding ... that you turn necks after each firing? Turning necks only needs to be done once...period! Unless turning necks to achieve proper radial clearance in chambers with a tight neck (which your factory Savage is not), the primary purpose is to establish uniform neck wall thickness. I suspect that thinning the wall after each firing would change NK tension between lots. And, eventually would result in the failure of the neck.
 
https://www.facebook.com/mysticprecision/videos/466922883682745/


Not sure if the link will work... I turn my competition brass quite often.. every firing or two... and I skim brass off.

In the video, I am prepping Lapua SR palma brass.

Jerry
 
Yes i have seen this good post. Each firing i do shave off some brass, keeps it at 13 thou as brass seems to flow towards the neck as i shoot it.
By JECs it’s to be done with a real competition rifles.
My lowly savage shouldn’t have this done... or should it?
 
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