making precision reloads for win 308. a few specific questions

madman25

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about a year or so ago I got my rifle tuned up. Rem 700. Had action blueprinted, PTG bolt(1-peice), and a 1:10 kreiger barrel put on.
Barrel is about 32" long with a counter bored crown. it tapers from 1.35 to 1.15 at crown (straight taper), so its retardedly heavy, but works very nice.

I have been reloading for many years, use varget and CCI BR2 primers typically.

Tried 208 amax and berger 210VLDs, was not too happy with what they did, about to try 190 VLDs

will do a box of ammo with various OALs to determine what it likes then a load test to see what charge works best.

I Currently use Winchester brass that I sort to less than 1/2 grain standard deviation in groups of 50.

I outside neck turn, and use Redding competition die set with carbide inserts to neck size, and body die when needed.

I have a very accurate scale (1/10th milligram) so I am very happy with my charge control. SD of my charges tends to be in 0.05 grain range

Looking to improve the quality of my reloads


I do not have a primer pocket uniformer, is this a good investment? what does it accomplish(outside what is says on the box)

Is Lapua brass worth the bit extra, how does their weights do out of the box, ie how many should I get to sort?
do you need to do much case prep, ie neck turning?

Is meplat uniforming worth it, what about meplat pointing dies(or is this just gimmicky)

any other ideas to look into?

Thanks for the advice
 
Since you obviously are looking into the best you can do then here are a few things. Lapua brass is very good right out of the box but Winchester has a bit bigger capacity than Lapua. This does make a difference with the heavy bullets. If you sort the Winchester for weight and neck thickness consistency around the diameter you can get Winchester cases to the same quality as Lapua. You just throw away a few cases. If you are neck turning then make sure you have enough neck side clearance. Up to a point more is better.

A pocket uniformer cuts a square primer pocket bottom at an even depth from the rim. Does it matter? I don't know but I do all of mine using a Sinclair uniformer and I am looking for the lowest extreme spreads I can get. You only need to do it once for the life of the brass and it is supposed to make the primer ignition better and more consistent because the primer seats evenly and the anvil legs are better supported than on a rounded bottom.

One thing I also do is chamfer the inside of the primer flashhole. This is one thing I would recommend because it affects the pattern of the primer flash on the inside of the case. Again for better ignition. You need to do this with Winchester.

I don't meplat uniform but I do point my bullets. I have found through testing that out of my rifles pointed 210 VLD bullets are more accurate at 300 meters. I have found this repeatedly. My suggestion is to test in your rifle and find out but I do use both Berger and Matrix 210 VLD's.

If you are going to only use these heavy bullets than have your throat lengthened to seat the bullets out. This way you gain powder capacity in the case. Seat a 210 VLD so that the bullet boattail shoulder is .050" down the neck and throat to give a .010" jam. This way you can use slow burning powders in the 308 case and gain velocity without pressure. However, you will not be able to shoot the lighter bullets then without a huge jump and some of them will not shoot accurately. You have to make a decision on which way to go. BTW, Varget and heavy bullets are not the way to go.

Switch primers. I found 3-4 years ago that the BR2's were the most accurate but lately I have been finding that Fed 210M's are more accurate so I have switched. Also, I was getting ignition issues with the BR2's in a number of rifles whereas I had no problems in the same rifles with Federal.

Do an OCW test at 100 meters for barrel whip then do a OAl test for bullet location. After those tests, switch to 300 meter testing for primers. Once those tests are done, assuming you can shoot, and the rifle and scope are working then you will have a good shooting combo.

That rifle combo should give you 1/2" to 3/4" 5 shot groups at 300 meters assuming you can do it and you have the right optics. If it does then you can win most F-Class TR matches.

BTW, shoot either Matrix or Bergers. A-Max will not give the accuracy of these.

Steve
 
forgot to add, i do chamfer my flash holes, and my throat was cut for long bullets.

I used to use 210M as well, maybe go back to them, they are cheaper too last i checked

How do you like the Matrix Bullets?

anyone in canada have a good deal on bulk winchester new brass, there are some great deals in states, but cannot ship up here as I understand it.
Other than that I will order a bunch of 50 piece bags, my brass is getting up there on shot counts, and would like top make some better sets

OCW? pardon my ignorance, and OAl i assume is overall length, Am I reading right as charge then seat depth?
 
As with varget, I have 8lbs left, so I will stick with it for now, was getting about 2580 fps with 210 VLDs last load I did, nothing to complain about there I would imagine.
 
Matrix bullets are good quality bullets and are equal from my testing to Berger's. Google up OCW testing and you will get the information and testing procedure. It is used to determine where the ignition shockwave is located down the barrel. Yes, determine where the muzzle is the most stable then fine tune using seating depth and primer selection.

If you are getting 2580 fps using Varget your pressures might be way too high and your barrel life will be short. These heavy bullets and Varget kill barrels.

Steve
 
Never mind Winchester brass, get Lapua Palma (SM Primer) way stronger web area than Winchester and other brass,PP stay tighter with palma brass and will handle higher pressures.
Neck turn 100% cut and weigh brass
Uniform primer pockets, inside out.
Never mind the vld bullets go to Berger 185 gr Match Hybrid Target or the 200 gr match Hybrid. these hybrids will out shoot the VLDS and have higher BC also Matrix could work well,
You must measure all bullets ogive and separate I do to .001 some fellows will do .002 you get the tool to measure with Hoover Bullet pointer
The best thing you can possibly do to get more accuracy 7,8, & 900 m is buy your self a HOOVER BULLET POINTER .meplate trim and point you will gain almost 1 moa in elevation and very very accurate.

I have tested this at 900 m on a nice evening no wind conditions at Connaught fired 15 shots 12 v bulls 3 bulls = 75 12v
I then fired 12 rounds at 900m non pointed had to bring up elevation 3/4 moa fired 10 for score 3 v bulls and 2 4s = 48 3 v, friend had same results with his non pointed bullets.
Powder you might have low ES with would be VT 150, and very good accuracy & speed,stay away from any double base powders like VT 540, 550 RL 17,etc these double base powders are hard on throat and get squirrely pressures with heat on warm summer days.

Good luck
Manitou
 
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For my FTR rifles - win brass (I want more case capacity vs higher pressures).

Sort by case volume not case weight.

Anneal often and do it properly.

For the bullets you mentioned, just off the lands.

Get rid of the Varget - way too fast and you have way too much room in your case which can lead to irratic ignition. IMR4007SSC and slower powders. Fill that case.

I assume you have checked run out but the stuff you are using is very good.

Try another brand of primer. Even a magnum primer.

What type of accuracy are you getting?

Jerry
 
I disagree with using Lapua small primer brass but it is your choice. With small primer brass your pressures can approach 90,000 to 100,000 psi and this will eventually lead to someone grenading an action. The loads the Brits were using were apparently tested at 90,000 psi. This is proof testing load levels and in my opinion way too dangerous. Large primers are easy to read pressures. I would like to see small primer brass in the 308 banned for use in competition, not because it doesn't work well, but because somebody is going to put one into a Savage and grenade it.

Manitou's suggestion is also a good one regarding the 200 Hybrids. This bullet has the possibility to replace all others but I have had good luck with the 210's. They both have the same BC's. The Hybrids also shoot well seated off the lands and jumped about .025".

Measure your bullet runout and only shoot ammo in matches with under .002" runout.

Steve
 
I do have a runout tool(rcbs)

If I do my job I am getting about 0.4 moa or so at 200m, but still have not got a pet load done as either I or load is having some consistency issues.
210's did not seem to like being sent at the charges I was at, Will try the 200 hybrids and or 185 hybrid
 
I might be out in left field here (please correct me if I have been miss informed), but I was once told by a real ballistics expert (NOT THE INTERNET) that the 1:10 twist is best suited for 160 ish grain bullets more specifically 165-167 gr. This could be why your not getting the results from the heavier bullets your looking for.
 
1:10 is good for heavies, 1:20 was factory barrel, would so up to 185, but not stable for heavier, this is a 30 cal bore, maybe said expert was not talking 30 cal, as rules of thumb for twist rate change for different bores
 
madman25;9574874 will do a box of ammo with various OALs to determine what it likes then a load test to see what charge works best. Is Lapua brass worth the bit extra said:
I think Lapua brass is great for being out of the box conditioned.

It sounds like you do distance of lands testing prior to load testing? Seems backwards to me. Any reason for that?

I've found AMAX's like to be close to the lands. Generally all the loads I've developed have been most accurate just off the lands.

I shoot 208's out of a 1-11.25 twist barrel. No issues out well past 1000 yards. Accuracy doesn't seem to suffer as it remains more accurate than I can shoot. FWIW, 5500 ft elevation.
 
At .4 MOA you are getting there.

To be competitive you need to be in the .25 to .3 range. Now a whole bunch of things come into play. Your reticle in the scope, how you hold the rifle, your breathing and trigger release, and further work on your loads. I have found that it is really easy to get to the .5 MOA range with a Remington actioned rifle but it is work to get below. I now do as much testing as match shooting to keep fine tuning everything. Also, I cannot shoot .25 - .3 moa everyday. Mental focus also comes into play and some days I just can't focus well enough.

Swap scopes as see if a new one gets you below .4. It is amazing how many times that solves issues. Play with your existing scope to correct focus and parallax.

Try a different rest and or table to shoot off of. If your rest is a Harris then switching to a tripod or Rempal/MPOD will get you there right away.

How do you know your load isn't working? Is it extreme spread or standard deviations? As we have told you Varget isn't the powder for heavy bullets so you might be over pressuring the base of the bullet on ignition and causing accuracy issues.

Now the work starts.

Steve
 
Thanks steve.

I too have days when I am not up to the focus needed.
Things i need to do to the rifle is a better front rest, have Harris style right now, and scope and mounts.
scope right now is elite 6500 4.5-30 mildot with turrets, and only a 15 MOA leopold base with standard rings.
looking into a 20-25 MOA rail and higher rings. Had my base shimmed to 20 MOA on original rifle, but cannot on it now as scope bell hits the barrel.

getting a much better scope can lead to $$ not yet available

I have had this setup do 0.35 MOA at 200m, but luck may have been part of that so it does not count.

if I want to use the Varget up, would it be better to use 185 hybrids, or is that still too fast a powder. need to see what speeds I get as lower BC hybrid 185 may do better at distance than 200, but need to see what happens for that

look forward to making better loads, and improving my skill as well.
 
Hi

If you wanted to replace the scope, try a Sightron 8 x 32 x 56 with either the LRLOA and 1/4 turrets or the Fine crosshair dot with 1/8 MOA depending on your preferences. This is a superb scope and at the $1000 level is a real bargain. I tested one recently and it was fully equal in tracking to my March's at almost 4 x the price. The optics are at least equal to Nightforce in every review I have read from around the world.

IMHO replace the rail with a quality unit such as Nightforce, Farrell or Near and install quality rings. With the Sightron you need a height equivalent to a Nighghtforce 1.00" ring height. Rings are measured different ways so that is why I explained it that way.

Replacing the hopping Harris will also make a big difference. In fact, probably moving to tripod will bring your groups size down substantially. Make sure you are using a quality rear bag also.

Yes, Varget works very well with the 185's. In fact if all you want to do is plink, try anything from 155's through 185's. Your barrel will last a lot longer doing this than using the 200's with slower burning powders. If you don't "need" the better wind drift for points in competition stick with the lighter bullets. Less recoil and the barrel life is better.

F-Class is evolving now to basically 3 different bullet weights and, in time, probably only 2. 155 for Palma and traditional target rifle shooting and either Berger 185 Juggernauts or 200 Hybrids for T-TR at long range.

Steve
 
BTW, the length of time the ammo has been made up also affects the groups size. I had a 223 match rifle that shot fresh loads into the .25 - .30 MOA goal on a regular basis, however, let that same ammo sit for 6 months or so and it wouldn't shoot under .75 moa. Crack the bullet seal and you would be back to the smaller groups.

Steve
 
I've had a lot of luck with Varget and the 155's and recently found that the Berger 155.5 Full Bore is where the money is at in my rifle. Way better bullets than the Lapua's and edge out the Sierra's as well. Tossing these things at almost 3000 fps is working great. Brass prep and case sorting is giving me the consistency I want.
 
I've been exceptionally happy using Varget with the 200 Hybrids, as have several others. For myself I use neck turned Lapua Brass, CCI BR2s, sort bullets to .001, and point using the Whidden die. This load consistently gives me ESs of 10 and SDs of 4 and is relatively easy on the brass (20+ firings). While this is not a particularly hot load it's enough to stay supersonic past 900m in any conditions I would be shooting in, and regularly groups in the .3s. The small primer brass can get you more MV, and withstand more pressure but I just didn't see the need for it.

Scott
 
I've been exceptionally happy using Varget with the 200 Hybrids, as have several others. For myself I use neck turned Lapua Brass, CCI BR2s, sort bullets to .001, and point using the Whidden die. This load consistently gives me ESs of 10 and SDs of 4 and is relatively easy on the brass (20+ firings). While this is not a particularly hot load it's enough to stay supersonic past 900m in any conditions I would be shooting in, and regularly groups in the .3s. The small primer brass can get you more MV, and withstand more pressure but I just didn't see the need for it.

Scott

Is this the old gruchy sarcastic Scott.......................nevermind.

Bruno
 
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