The third "safety" lug on Mauser 98 type actions generally doesn't bear against the receiver and thus doesn't contribute to action strength. Its purpose is keep the bolt from being blown out of the receiver in the event of the front locking lugs failing. Some actions use the root of the bolt handle to accomplish the same purpose.
Mannlicher-Carcano -> Gew 98?
- Thread starter Dryzen
- Start date
+1
The P-14/M-1917 comes to mind here.
Besides, any two lugged rifle should be fine as long as the metal is sound and proper ammo is used. A competent smith can check that out and suggest what type of ammo to be used.
In other words... shoot away.
Wikipedia and google are always a good place to start. The surplusrifle.com website also has a good forum for finding that kind of info.
This should get you started:
Gewehr 88.
You are correct. This is one of the fundamental differences between the 'Commission Rifle' Gewehr 88 and Paul Mauser's Gewehr 98.
Here is a link to my photobucket main page, on the left you will see a album titled "Gew 88". I have taken some detailed close up photos of my Gewehr 88 and a few of them center on the action of the Gewehr 88 and comparing it side by side with my Polish Kbk wz 98 carbine which has a Mauser action.
My photobucket page
I recently bought a book called "The German Gew.88 'Commission' Rifle" by Paul S. Scarlata. It is jam packed with information on the Gewehr 88, its development, along with its limited service life in Germany as well as other nations. The book even covers the Gewehr 71, 71/84, and the Kar.71, 88 models. It also has a section on the bayonet types that were issued with the Gewehr 88. I learned alot from reading this book and I highly recommend it if you are interested in the Gewehr 88.
As far as your regimental marking, it is very similar to mine on my rifle. Using the following source (somewhat incomplete) (Link), I would say your rifle at one point, was the 250th weapon, attached to the recruiting depot for the (a ?) 10th Bavarian infantry regiment. The book reference mentioned above does not cover regimental markings in detail so I had to do some searches on the internet and post on other forums to get an idea what the markings on my Gewehr 88 meant (mine, as you may see from the photobucket page, was attached to the recruiting depot for the 95th Landwehr Infantry Regiment, rifle # 325).
I am curious do you have any more markings or "X'd" out markings on the front and/or rear band ?
Hope my sources help you out but feel free to ask anything else as I may have the answer or would be interested in finding it.
Marking is on the front band and there are no X'd out numbers anywhere.
With the rifle muzzle pointed away from you, look on the left (or right) side of the front band for the two digits of the serial number associated with that rifle. Do the two digits there match the last two digits on the serial stamped on the receiver ? I am curious to see if it is the matching front band as mine was replaced at one point but the rear band has the unit markings and is matching.
Is the rear band matching and/or does not have any regimental markings ?
If you could, I would be very interested in seeing photos for comparison between my Gewehr 88 and yours.
All numbers on this rifle match except for the bolt which is turk marked. Even the screws on the trigger guard are matching everything else. The rear band is matching and has no other marks than the 24 marked on it.
I have no idea where my camera is but as soon as I find it I will post pics for you.
I look forward to it as well! The bolt on my Gewehr 88 was one that was re-ordered by the Turks in the 1920s and has the markings on it (Z in a circle on the wing safety is one location of the marking). The stock on mine does not match and neither does the Mannlicher action. I'm not bothered by it though.
Does yours have the milled blocks for the insertion of the Gewehr 98 stripper clips on the rear of the action ? That usually is the first sign that it was one that was converted to the Gewehr 98 standards in 1905 by Spandau but it did not mean the bore was changed to take .323 spitzers.
Have you slugged the bore yet ?
Does yours have the milled blocks for the insertion of the Gewehr 98 stripper clips on the rear of the action ? That usually is the first sign that it was one that was converted to the Gewehr 98 standards in 1905 by Spandau but it did not mean the bore was changed to take .323 spitzers.
Have you slugged the bore yet ?
It has the milled blocks on the receiver and the magazine has a piece of metal fixed to the bottom of it dated 1914. I haven't had a chance to slug it yet but it is on my list of things to do. The turk bolt is really clean looking with only 3 crisp crescent moons on the bolt head, bolt knob and safety wing.
Sounds like your rifle went the same path as mine, she is a Gewehr 88/05 that was given to the Turkish in ~1916-1917 to augment their weapon shortage for their armed forces. Some 88s were sold off after the war to arms dealers or other countries as military surplus (some Gewehr 88s even make an appearance during the Spanish Civil War and some resistance groups). Gewehr 88s in the 1920s had bolts ordered by the Turkish government from a manufacture in Germany to re-build their weapon supplies (as the British, rather than take the inferior weapons as after war compensation, took the bolts out instead in 1918-1919).
I can tell you up to the 1920s what my rifle went through but after that I haven't a clue as the physical modifications and history that is on the rifle just stops. Many Gewehr 88s were converted by the Turkish in the 1930s to modern standards of that time (one of the most notable changes was the removal of the barrel jacket and a re-work of the stock to accommodate the barrel but the Turkish Gewehr 88/05/35s (I can't recall the Turkish designation) were also able to take the .323 heavy spitzer rounds). I would always slug the bore on the 88s as you just never know.
EDIT: The Turkish reworks are called "Tufek 1935".
I can tell you up to the 1920s what my rifle went through but after that I haven't a clue as the physical modifications and history that is on the rifle just stops. Many Gewehr 88s were converted by the Turkish in the 1930s to modern standards of that time (one of the most notable changes was the removal of the barrel jacket and a re-work of the stock to accommodate the barrel but the Turkish Gewehr 88/05/35s (I can't recall the Turkish designation) were also able to take the .323 heavy spitzer rounds). I would always slug the bore on the 88s as you just never know.
EDIT: The Turkish reworks are called "Tufek 1935".
That sounds pretty much what I have been finding on the 'net.
And I just pulled the rifle out of the safe and the regimental markings are on the rear band, not the front. I was going off of memory but everything else I said was bang on.
I will post pics as soon as I can.
And I just pulled the rifle out of the safe and the regimental markings are on the rear band, not the front. I was going off of memory but everything else I said was bang on.
I will post pics as soon as I can.
I believe that those Gew. 88s converted to take the later .323" ammunition by the Germans had an 'S' stamped on the receiver ring. Again, slugging the bore is the only way to know for sure.
Another noteworthy historical appearance of the Gew. 88 was when several of them which were smuggled into the UK by the Ulster Volunteer Force just before WWI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Volunteers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larne_gunrunning
Another noteworthy historical appearance of the Gew. 88 was when several of them which were smuggled into the UK by the Ulster Volunteer Force just before WWI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Volunteers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larne_gunrunning
The "S" stamp simply means that the Gewehr 88 was modified to take the 154gr Spitzer round, not the heavy spitzer. Original bore dimensions was .318 for the Patrone 88 (7.9x57mm) round but was increased to .321-.323 because of the bore becoming worn out too quickly. As you would guess, many Gewehr 88s vary in their bore dimensions (hence the need to slug the bore).
The 198gr 'heavy spitzer' was being used in machine guns in 1918 but never did make it down to the Gewehr 88s and 98s. The Gewehr 98's action can withstand the pressures from firing a 198gr bullet (Gewehr 98s made after 1903 had the .323 dimension) but a Gewehr 88 varies in bore dimension and has an action that may fire some .323 military ball ammo but will most likely give way in the future.
I know I must sound like a broken record but in all the sources and websites I have visited with information on the Gewehr 88, every single one noted that you should never fire modern military surplus 8mm Mauser ammo in the Gewehr 88 (especially European loads). You may be able to get away with American factory 8mm Mauser as it is down loaded to the pressure limits of the Gewehr 88 but if you have a bore dimension smaller than .323, you will run into problems.
What I did for my Gewehr 88 was slug the bore with a soft lead fishing bullet weight that had a dimension larger than my bore (so it would engage the rifling) and measured the portion of the bullet weight afterwards that engaged the rifling to get an idea of what the dimensions are (mine came out to ~.321 so I would stick with a .321, 154 gr Spitzer round for hand loads).
After that, I would hand load with the 154 gr Spitzer and standard 57mm cartridge for low powder loads to test my Gewehr 88 and see if there is any real fatigue afterwards during inspection. If satisfied, I would move up to medium loads and leave it there.
EDIT: For the Gewehr 88, do not take this as a rule of thumb, but have a look at the rear sight base on the left side with muzzle pointed away and you will see a stamp with the bore dimensions as measured back when the rifle was made. Since my bore dimensions came out to a .321 from the bullet weight, I noticed I had "7.91" on the rear sight base which makes sense and shows that the bore has not changed significantly since it's manufacture.
The 198gr 'heavy spitzer' was being used in machine guns in 1918 but never did make it down to the Gewehr 88s and 98s. The Gewehr 98's action can withstand the pressures from firing a 198gr bullet (Gewehr 98s made after 1903 had the .323 dimension) but a Gewehr 88 varies in bore dimension and has an action that may fire some .323 military ball ammo but will most likely give way in the future.
I know I must sound like a broken record but in all the sources and websites I have visited with information on the Gewehr 88, every single one noted that you should never fire modern military surplus 8mm Mauser ammo in the Gewehr 88 (especially European loads). You may be able to get away with American factory 8mm Mauser as it is down loaded to the pressure limits of the Gewehr 88 but if you have a bore dimension smaller than .323, you will run into problems.
What I did for my Gewehr 88 was slug the bore with a soft lead fishing bullet weight that had a dimension larger than my bore (so it would engage the rifling) and measured the portion of the bullet weight afterwards that engaged the rifling to get an idea of what the dimensions are (mine came out to ~.321 so I would stick with a .321, 154 gr Spitzer round for hand loads).
After that, I would hand load with the 154 gr Spitzer and standard 57mm cartridge for low powder loads to test my Gewehr 88 and see if there is any real fatigue afterwards during inspection. If satisfied, I would move up to medium loads and leave it there.
EDIT: For the Gewehr 88, do not take this as a rule of thumb, but have a look at the rear sight base on the left side with muzzle pointed away and you will see a stamp with the bore dimensions as measured back when the rifle was made. Since my bore dimensions came out to a .321 from the bullet weight, I noticed I had "7.91" on the rear sight base which makes sense and shows that the bore has not changed significantly since it's manufacture.
Just to help re-enforce what was previously stated, I am going to quote some passages from my book "German Gew. 88 'Commission' Rifle" by Paul S. Scarlata.
Oh and to let you know, Recce21, our rifles are two of the 350,000 converted to 88/05 specifications according to this book.
Hope this helps clear up some things regarding the Spitzer round.
"Adopted by secret directive in April 1903, the new spitzer bullet - the Geschoss S -- had a diameter of 0.323 inches (8.22mm), weighed 154 gr. (9.8g) and consisted of a lead core with a nicket-plated, iron jacket 0.5mm thick as opposed to the 0.3mm jacket of the Geschoss 88.
...
Accordingly, in 1905 the War Ministry ordered the G.P.K. to examine the practicality of converting the Infanteriegewehr 88 to fire the Patrone S.
Seeing as the Patrone 88 and Patrone S used identical cartridge cases, no changes were necessary to the clip or magazine and the conversion process was rather simple and straightforward.
...
The modified rifle was designated the...Infanteriegewehr 88/S -- and can be identified by an "S" stamped on top of the chamber. When one debates the use of the more powerful Patrone S in the 88-style weapons, it should be taken into consideration that because of its pointed shape, the Geschoss S only had 35 percent of the bearing surface that the Geschoss 88 did, thus reducing operating pressures inside the barrel.
...
(From a personal note from the author at the end of the chapter, I think it sums up the issue quite perfectly)
I feel it is necessary to include a caveat here. While the German army (and others) apparently felt that firing the Patrone S in the Infanteriegewehr 88 was perfectly safe, over the years many ballisticians, gunsmiths, and others have attempted to dissuade shooters from doing so. The reasons are many but the primary one is that you must look with askance upon the practice of pushing a .323" diameter bullet down a barrel that was designed and built for one measuring .318". One must also take into consideration the age and condition of those Infanteriegewehr 88 still in existence --to say nothing of the quality of some of the Chinese made copies.
Then there are the large quantities of surplus 7.9mm Patrone sS (..."heavy pointed bullet") ammunition presently available on the surplus market --usually at very attractive prices. This version of the 7.9x57 cartridge was developed late in the Great War for use in machine guns and featured a 198-gr. boattail spitizer bullet traveling at 2575fps. In the 1930s most nations using the 7.9x57 cartridge adopted the Patrone sS as general issue for both rifles and machine guns. It goes without saying that firing the Patrone sS in 88-type rifles or carbines cannot be discouraged too strongly!
...
Accordingly, in 1905 the War Ministry ordered the G.P.K. to examine the practicality of converting the Infanteriegewehr 88 to fire the Patrone S.
Seeing as the Patrone 88 and Patrone S used identical cartridge cases, no changes were necessary to the clip or magazine and the conversion process was rather simple and straightforward.
...
The modified rifle was designated the...Infanteriegewehr 88/S -- and can be identified by an "S" stamped on top of the chamber. When one debates the use of the more powerful Patrone S in the 88-style weapons, it should be taken into consideration that because of its pointed shape, the Geschoss S only had 35 percent of the bearing surface that the Geschoss 88 did, thus reducing operating pressures inside the barrel.
...
(From a personal note from the author at the end of the chapter, I think it sums up the issue quite perfectly)
I feel it is necessary to include a caveat here. While the German army (and others) apparently felt that firing the Patrone S in the Infanteriegewehr 88 was perfectly safe, over the years many ballisticians, gunsmiths, and others have attempted to dissuade shooters from doing so. The reasons are many but the primary one is that you must look with askance upon the practice of pushing a .323" diameter bullet down a barrel that was designed and built for one measuring .318". One must also take into consideration the age and condition of those Infanteriegewehr 88 still in existence --to say nothing of the quality of some of the Chinese made copies.
Then there are the large quantities of surplus 7.9mm Patrone sS (..."heavy pointed bullet") ammunition presently available on the surplus market --usually at very attractive prices. This version of the 7.9x57 cartridge was developed late in the Great War for use in machine guns and featured a 198-gr. boattail spitizer bullet traveling at 2575fps. In the 1930s most nations using the 7.9x57 cartridge adopted the Patrone sS as general issue for both rifles and machine guns. It goes without saying that firing the Patrone sS in 88-type rifles or carbines cannot be discouraged too strongly!
Oh and to let you know, Recce21, our rifles are two of the 350,000 converted to 88/05 specifications according to this book.
Hope this helps clear up some things regarding the Spitzer round.
The Forum at http://www.gew88.com/ has extensive information on the Gew88 and the community surrounding this classic arm.
Agreed, one of the forum members there explained and helped me through the bore slugging process and even suggested some ammo materials for hand loading.
Very nice 88/05. Looks like she was one of many Gewehr 88s sent to Turkey during WW1. She has had her rear sight scrubbed and stamped in Arabic (like my 88/05) and wasn't re-worked any time afterwards. Looks like she also has a Czech replacement, Turkish marked, bolt (very common on Turked Gewehr 88s). She also has a nice layer of patina and it shows her age quite nicely.
By the looks of the regimental mark, she saw Bavarian service at either a Reserve Infantry regiment or a recruiting depot for a reserve infantry regiment.
Here is how I read it: 50th ? (somewhat cut off) weapon issued to the 2nd company of the 10th Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment or 10th Bavarian Reserve Infantry Recruiting depot. Does the band match the receiver ? I cannot get any more specific than that as I do not have a detailed source for regimental information or markings.
I am curious what other parts match ? I have a few that match on mine but many match don't match the receiver but to themselves.
I am also curious as to the condition of the bore and general internal parts ?
All you need now is a sling and a bayonet and your ready for action
.
Thank you for sharing.
By the looks of the regimental mark, she saw Bavarian service at either a Reserve Infantry regiment or a recruiting depot for a reserve infantry regiment.
Here is how I read it: 50th ? (somewhat cut off) weapon issued to the 2nd company of the 10th Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment or 10th Bavarian Reserve Infantry Recruiting depot. Does the band match the receiver ? I cannot get any more specific than that as I do not have a detailed source for regimental information or markings.
I am curious what other parts match ? I have a few that match on mine but many match don't match the receiver but to themselves.
I am also curious as to the condition of the bore and general internal parts ?
All you need now is a sling and a bayonet and your ready for action
.Thank you for sharing.
