Marked up version of IPSC 2012 Handgun Rules

pats said:
YEP, TOTALLY disagree with you. and video below to show why

yes many ways to play the game, but why not show your shooting skills rather then out of the box skills

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shjtty stage design plane and simple, if you can't do it right dont make up some bulls**t rule to make up for it. find a way to build it right or don't be pissed whne someone with a bit of common sense tears your stage apart.

Part of what seperates, the GM & M's from the rest is their ability to solve stages, not just their shooting. Thinking is part of the game without it we are the same idpa/bullseye,ppc.

that start position was pointless to begin with, hey lets make the shooter run around a wall first. Both of them ran around a wall, whats the problem? if you wanted everyone to go to the left its pretty simple, make it worth their while to do so. put a target on the left that would be past 90 on the other side of the wall, or make going around the right take longer. have the gun or first mag on a table to the left of the start.
 
I think 99% shot it the way you had designed it to be shot, he was on our squad and was the only person to do that. Our squad did discuss this route but all agreed that there was no advantage except him. In the end pats i think the stage worked and was shot the way you designed it.
 
Madness said:
shjtty stage design plane and simple, if you can't do it right dont make up some bulls**t rule to make up for it. find a way to build it right or don't be pissed whne someone with a bit of common sense tears your stage apart.
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wow, thanks, I'll remember that when i put 6 months of work in to a big competition for free to please the membership for someone on the internet to tear it apart. my feelings are hurt .

Madness said:
Part of what seperates, the GM & M's from the rest is their ability to solve stages, not just their shooting. Thinking is part of the game without it we are the same idpa/bullseye,ppc.
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ya, okay, so GM'S AND M's constantly run out of the boundaries to gain advantage. hmm funny i didn't see any GMs or Ms run out of the boundaries , and guess what, they still did their GM and M scores. sorry but most out west here show there skill buy shooting it faster and more accurately then others .

Madness said:
that start position was pointless to begin with, hey lets make the shooter run around a wall first. Both of them ran around a wall, whats the problem? if you wanted everyone to go to the left its pretty simple, make it worth their while to do so. put a target on the left that would be past 90 on the other side of the wall, or make going around the right take longer. have the gun or first mag on a table to the left of the start.
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yep, have to disagree with you. there was no advantage going right. what was pointless, is going right .

john simmons said:
I think 99% shot it the way you had designed it to be shot, he was on our squad and was the only person to do that. Our squad did discuss this route but all agreed that there was no advantage except him. In the end pats i think the stage worked and was shot the way you designed it.
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thanks John, i think in the end it was a fun stage with a good amount of movement. i watched a lot of groups discuss going around , and in the end it never made it worth while..
 
2.2.1.5 If a COF has a passageway visibly delineated by fault lines and/or a clearly demarcated shooting area, any competitor who takes a shortcut outside the passageway and/or shooting area will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after beginning the shortcut.
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I agree with Filthy and Madness, if you cannot design stages without loopholes then you just need more experience in stage design, it only takes a small peice or rope or 1x2 to keep evryone exactly where you want them.

As usual the great non shooting minds that make up the rules have dropped in another way to penalize shooters which may and probably will be applied to situations it was never meant for. For example some one inavertently stepping or slipping over a fault line could then be given a procedural per shot.

Would your foot actually have to touch outside the the fault/charge line or just cutting across a corner without stepping outside be considered a shortcut??
 
Unfortunately "cutting across a corner" would be considered "taking a shortcut outside the passageway and/or shooting area" thus incurring a procedural for each shot fired after "cutting across the corner"............that's the way I read it, I hope I'm wrong
 
While I can see how this new rule WILL be applied badly, I have to agree with pats, that shooter (1st video) should never have been allowed to do that, there was a wall and by the looks of it a rear fault line. How much fencing are you guys suggesting we put in before ALL avenues are blocked off but the one we want the shooter to take? Should we surround the whole stage? Course designers shouldn't have to build a freaking house for each stage in order to put on a match.
 
Unfortunately there have been too many "interesting" interpretations on what should be allowed in the name of "freestyle" shooting to the point where you could argue that you could almost do any stupid thing including running laps of the shooting bay because its "freestyle" and because of that we are getting monumentally stupid rules put in place to prevent such actions. I have no problem if a WSB tells the shooters that they must stay within the confines of a shooting area as long as everyone has to do it equally, if the course designer forgets to put that in then some reason should be used to determine if it is safe or outside the stage design (up to the RM) to allow shooters to cut around obstacles and if is decided that no it won't be allowed...and nobody else has already done so than its all good.
 
Okay, fine I take the geography out of my commnent , and I agree with race1911 , I can see this rule getting read into more then what it says and how I originally read it.., as for inexperience . Yes I am inexperience . Yes I've only been doing this for a Couple of years , at least I'm trying and at least I'm taking on projects big and small.
 
PH Racing said:
Course designers shouldn't have to build a freaking house for each stage in order to put on a match.
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this really just my point . As a match director At my range I have to look at a match and try to make it work for set up in one day with usually 3-6 ppl volunteering and 7 stages and try to make it bullet proof so that its shot equally by all shooters And interesting and competitive for all classes. I understand freestyle but I don't think runnin out of the shooting area is freestyle.
 
pats said:
. I understand freestyle but I don't think runnin out of the shooting area is freestyle.
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That is the point altogether. The shooting area was not clearly defined. That is just poor course design. Chalk it up to a mistake. Big deal we all make them and if you continue to design courses of fire you have now learned something to reference in the future to make your other stages better. Get over it and carry on. I don't think anybody said your COF was bad, just that you made a mistake.
 
SVISTI1911 said:
That is the point altogether. The shooting area was not clearly defined. That is just poor course design. Chalk it up to a mistake. Big deal we all make them and if you continue to design courses of fire you have now learned something to reference in the future to make your other stages better. Get over it and carry on. I don't think anybody said your COF was bad, just that you made a mistake.
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I see walls and fault lines, seems clearly defined to me...

SVISTI1911 said:
That is just poor course design..
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SVISTI1911 said:
I don't think anybody said your COF was bad,..
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I kinda think you just did...lol
 
pats said:
this really just my point . As a match director At my range I have to look at a match and try to make it work for set up in one day with usually 3-6 ppl volunteering and 7 stages and try to make it bullet proof so that its shot equally by all shooters And interesting and competitive for all classes. I understand freestyle but I don't think runnin out of the shooting area is freestyle.
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Our set up crews, and myself for that matter, can't commit entire days to setting up level I and II matches, most of us work, if we can get the job done in 4-5 hours it's do-able. And I know the crew is a lot happier if we don't have to drag out a million walls to build the match...
 
pats said:
I like the storm fencing . Used it for the first time at the provincials . Really nice to make long stages with walls
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Storm fencing is the norm. Look at any major match. U need to get out more. Lol
 
PH Racing said:
I kinda think you just did...lol
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Maybe, more incomplete then bad from what I get from the comments. I didn't shoot the match so I don't know.

I just think Pats is taking it personally which is hard not to do when you spend so much time and energy on a match this size trying to make it perfect. My point is that as course designers we will never make everyone happy so don't even bother trying. Just do the best you can and if you make a mistake or if you get some criticism just use it to help you improve next time around, thats all. Besides the stage was ok'd by Sean the RD and someone on the IPSC World Body, so it was missed by others, not just Pats.
 
maurice said:
Storm fencing is the norm. Look at any major match. U need to get out more. Lol
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Yep I do need to get out more . Shooting on a budget and a year with major injuries is not my idea of fun. But I do plan on doing more traveling for matches . Believe me I will be using this more. And now that I'm doing different work that should allow me to do more traveling for matches
 
pats said:
wow, thanks, I'll remember that when i put 6 months of work in to a big competition for free to please the membership for someone on the internet to tear it apart. my feelings are hurt .



ya, okay, so GM'S AND M's constantly run out of the boundaries to gain advantage. hmm funny i didn't see any GMs or Ms run out of the boundaries , and guess what, they still did their GM and M scores. sorry but most out west here show there skill buy shooting it faster and more accurately then others .



yep, have to disagree with you. there was no advantage going right. what was pointless, is going right .




thanks John, i think in the end it was a fun stage with a good amount of movement. i watched a lot of groups discuss going around , and in the end it never made it worth while..
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:jerkit: quit your crying. you got burned becuase you didn't put enough thought into the stage. you can learn from it or you can play the poor me card,hide behind a BS rule and make assinine comments about shjt you know little about(skill level in other provinces) Eric G is the king of exploiting holes in stage design, so he must not be a good shooter :rolleyes:
its not up to you to decide what the best route is, its up to the shooter, he was within the rules, may have been slower but thats their choice
 
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