MARTINI HENRY / british RED TUNIC QUESTION

NB.nagantsniper

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HERES AN UNUSUAL QUESTION.

i own a martini 450-577 rifle dated 1879.

id like to make up a costume / uniform for attending black powder shoots .

red tunic / sack coat, ( as related to 1879 zulu war if possible )

i see photos on the internet gives me a good look at front but i need a view of the back.

i have in the past make costumes for civil war era, buckskinning ect so if any member has reenactor pics or perhaps can scan a page or 2 from an osprey books on that uniform would be most helpful.

pm me with any help or post is ok as well.
thanks all!!
 
well i'll tell you them boys where built different wearing all that wool carrying around 8.5lb of ammo and 9lb of gun in the african heat(shirt and tunic are both wool so are the pants)

i'll see what i can dig up :)
 
thanks antiqueguy.............post em here or pm me if its easier to email them to me .

if i get the pics im sure my lady and i can do the rest. front PIVS OK, but REAR / BACK PHOTOS NEEDED most.
 
Have one here but it's a small size.

Pattern is okay, though. Canada Militia issue.

Material is red SERGE.

I'll haul it out and get some snaps, next couple of days.
 
Of course you will also need the Oliver pattern water bottle, the slade wallace leather gear, the side pack, the back pack, the mess tin, (with cover), the bayonet, and of course the pith helmet with brass regimental insignia and the gaiters.Been there, done that, 92nd foot, (Gordons)
Almost forgot, the blue trousers with red stripe down the sides. We used surplus marine corps trousers since they already had the stripe and were the right colour.
 
1 item at a time!! but most likely i will be getting the kit you mention.

nice idea on the marine corp trousers ill look into that idea !! thanks sir !!

a 50 rd bandolier would also be neede along with the cartridge box's on the leather gear i think that makes about 75rd total witch is around 8.5 to 9 lb of ammo it matches the gun in weight when the bayo is on and that was not enough accuracy was not a big thing with these its said there was 20,000 rounds at rorkes drift and only 900 left after all was said and done
 
Yes folks ..... let the poor chap walk before you enter him in the Marathon! ;)

NB.nagantsniper, I know exactly what you have been experiencing ..... seems almost all depictions of soldiers of the period show them from the front only ..... with the very few back views almost invariably done to show the pack and other equipment for Full Marching Order .... which obscures the details of the tunic/frock. It is definitely hard to find an unobstructed rear view!

Note my use of the term "frock" .... which is what you are after, I believe - more precisely, a "field frock", which was a simpler version of the full dress tunic intended for wear on active campaign - somewhat shorter, of looser and simpler cut, with less decoration and fewer buttons in the front (five rather than seven or more.) The field frock was the British equivalent of the American "sack coat", so you are not far wrong with that analogy!

The first two photos below are from "The Wardrobe" - website of The Rifles (Berkshire and Wiltshire) Museum. This used to be a really great online resource for a wide variety of uniform items and other kit. It still is pretty good, but unfortunately they have taken to putting up fewer and smaller images of each item, and the ones you can view are heavily watermarked - with the opportunity to buy unmarked examples, of course!

At any rate, these images show a field frock of the pattern in use through the 1870's and into the early 1880's. It is actually an officer's frock, but the cut and appearance of an Other Ranks frock would be essentially the same ..... although made out of somewhat coarser and less expensive material, and would not have the gold braid of course. The third image is another quartering back view (also of an officer's frock) from a different source - but at least it isn't cluttered up with watermarks. Actually, as officers' garments, these should give some idea just how basic and unadorned the field frock really was ....

officerfieldfrockc1870_1_zpsec96ec0e.jpg
officerfieldfrockc1870_2_zpse6fa0e32.jpg
officerfieldfrockc1870_3_zpsf95307d2.jpg


Note that rather than having relatively high skirt vents, closer to the center and running up into curved tailoring seams - such as would be seen on a tunic - the frock is really quite sack coat-like in cut, with short skirt vents spaced quite wide. As you have undoubtedly seen in other images, Other Ranks frocks would have both the collar and a "cuff point" (rather than a full cuff with point) in the facing colour of the regiment, with basic white piping at the base of the collar, outlining the shoulder straps, and sometimes down the front closure only (i.e. not around the bottom of the skirt as seen on the officers' frocks above) .... and a piped outline of the cuff detail rising into a simple trefoil knot at its peak -

vo052cpc_detail_zps5f410567.jpg
p1871-1.jpg


The buttons are missing from the "Wardrobe" officer's frock, and thus are not visible in the front view, but you can see that both of the Other Ranks frocks depicted above have only five buttons. The Regiment on the left had blue facings, the one on the right had red facings (thus no contrasting collar and cuffs, although there are white "tabs" at the front of the collar in that case, to set off the collar badges.

Hope this helps! (By the way, I believe you sent me a direct inquiry on this issue, and must apologize for failing to answer. I got called out of town unexpectedly for most of this past week, and forgot about it. Must be buried a ways back in my e-mail, as I can't even seem to locate it now ..... :redface: )
 
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I can help with the waistbelt buckle if you can't find one on your side of the border

There is a guy in Arizona who did the Slade Wallace leather gear, though I am not certain if he still does

irishmick@swiftaz.net

He did some for me at one time
 
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I'm not aware of anyone offering a formal pattern for the British field frock. I suspect you are going to have to adapt any US sack coat pattern you may have (as you surmised) to incorporate the features such as the standing collar, shoulder straps, five-button closure, skirt vents, and appropriate trim.

There is a guy in Arizona who did the Slade Wallace leather gear .....

That's "Mick" of O'Dea & Company Military Equipments (Camp Verde, AZ) but to the best of my knowledge he has never offered a reproduction of the Slade-Wallace Equipment, which in any event was the Pattern 1888 Equipment introduced at the same time as the .303 Magazine Lee-Metford rifle was adopted. Mick offers a fairly limited line of good quality reproduction items - primarily related to the Pattern 1853 Enfield and the Snider-Enfield, the only waistbelt shown on his web page being the "Pattern 1862" variation of the Pattern 1842 belt. He is still in business, as far as I know .... at any rate, his web page certainly appears active: http://www.britishmilitaryequipments.com

The equipment pattern used in conjunction with the Martini-Henry in the 1879/81 Zulu War and First Anglo-Boer War period is the Pattern 1871 Valise Equipment, with buff leather P'1876 cartridge pouch variant, as shown on both "Other Ranks" in my above posts. (When this Pattern was originally introduced in 1871, the two cartridge pouches on the waistbelt were black leather.) IMA offer an all-buff reproduction P'71 set (made in India) for US$149.95 - although it isn't quite the quality of some of the versions offered by a few UK and US vendors, it is also only about a third the price and is what I have - http://www.ima-usa.com/nation/british-militaria/british-field-gear/british-1871-valise-equipment-in-buff-white-leather.html

IMAP71Equipment_zps6067594c.jpg
 
I had forgotten about IMA But then it's been years since I played the game.
front rank kneeling is not the problem, BUT getting back up certainly is at my age! LOL
 
adapting the pattern i have ( civil war rebel regt jacket) it already has a stand up collar, i can alter the button to 5 no problem............adding shoulder straps no problem.
TRIM WILL BE TRICKY i think but do-able with help of my neighbor a proffessional seamstress.

also as to rear skirt vents a PHOTO SHOWING that would help............!!!
thanks all who contributed so far
 
OOOPS---------I SEE THE VENT in the rear quarter view .........should be no worry.................so my big catch will be the piping on neck and round shoulder flaps . and the KNOT AT THE WRIST AREA.
 
Yes, the vents are also just visible in the rear Wardrobe view .... but only because of the white piping, it being an officer's frock .....

I take it from your last post that you will likely not put any piping down the front closure of the frock - probably a good call, with a view to keeping it as simple as possible. As mentioned it seems to be present in some cases and not in others ..... possibly a "regimental thing".
 
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