Martini-Metford Carbine MK 111 -303

[WRB]

I just purchased this rifle today.. barrel is shinny with great rifling, and the rifle locks up tight with no play in action.

Can I use modern day 303 British ammo in the rifle, or do I have to go back to something in Black powder loads, or at least a smokeless equiv.

If the latter, can you suggest a load...

Thanks in advance bill

 

[Drachenblut]

I would suggest to you sir, use the lightest safest smokeless loads, or go black powder. That Metford rifling is very sensitive to high pressure cartridges.

 

[buffdog]

Martini-Metford

In 1899, the Mark I, .303 Ball Cartridge was approved, using 71.5 grains of a pelletised Black Powder, with a 215 grain cupro-nickel bullet. The Mark II Cordite round was approved in 1893. The Cordite Mark II was more stable than the Mark I round, but generated greater heat, giving more velocity but increased barrel wear.

The Metford rifling was designed for black powder loads. When smokeless powder began to be used in the .303, the Metford rifling was not suitable, and eroded fairly quick for Military usage. The rifling was then changed to the Enfield type rifling, which did not erode so fast using smokeless powder. Metford rifling is seven grooves of .004 inch, while Enfield rifling is five grooves of .005 inch.

The Metford type rifling had shallow, rounded grooves, while the Enfield type rifling had deeper, squared off type grooves. Metford rifling was designed for better cleaning of barrels that used Black Powder propellant.

Light starting loads of a medium burning powder should be all right for your purposes, but a cast lead bullet should really be good. Be sure to choose a heavier bullet, with a more rounded nose, as that is what the rifling was designed for.

Check the Knox form on the barrel. Many of these Martini rifles were rebarreled with Enfield barrels---they have a "E" stamped on the flat of the Knox form.

Personally, if I were going to shoot this rifle, I would use lighter loads of medium burning smokeless powder, with a 180 to 215 grain bullet, either jacketed or a 1/10 Lead mixture. The problem with Black Powder is cleaning the barrel, and in the Martini, that must be done from the muzzle. If you do clean from the muzzle, I would use a bore guide, so that the rod does not wear on the rifling.

For the amount of firing you are likely to do with this rifle, I would not worry too much about wearing out the barrel. I would be more concerned with cleaning the barrel, so that it does not rust, pit, or corrode. The Metford rifling was designed for a service life of 5000 to 6000 rounds before coming unusable, as long as it was cleaned properly and promptly.
.
.

 

[green]

When this arm was adopted Cordite loaded actgs were the standard. Since the rear site is graduated for Cordite ammo they were intended to use Cordite ammo.
In my experience cast lead bullets strip when used with .303" Metford barrels at velocities in excess of 1200 fps.

 

[buffdog]

Cast bullets

When this arm was adopted Cordite loaded actgs were the standard. Since the rear site is graduated for Cordite ammo they were intended to use Cordite ammo.
In my experience cast lead bullets strip when used with .303" Metford barrels at velocities in excess of 1200 fps.

You might try the old C.E. Harris classic load of 13 grains of Red Dot with a 180 grain cast bullet, alloyed 1 part Tin to 10 parts Lead, or the Lyman Number 2 bullet alloy of 1 part Tin, one part Antimony and 10 parts Lead which should give a velocity of 1600 to 1700 FPS with the .303 Cartridge, and good accuracy too.
.

 

[WRB]

Great information guys... thank you ever so much.

The rifling does not appear deep, but is very clean and shinny with not rust or pitting.

For the red dot load mentioned, would there be some sort of filler required to fill up the case??? I take it a gas check might do more harm than good??

Would wheel weight lead work, as I have a supply of it??

bill

 

[John Sukey]

Its NOT the pressure but rather the cordite which burns hotter than flake powder that eroded the barrel. Now keep in mind that the black powder load lasted a little more than two years and then smokeless (cordite) came along. Your carbine probably digested a heck of a lot more smokeless powder rounds than black powder ones while in service. The action is quite strong enough to use modern ammo.

 

[buffdog]

Great information guys... thank you ever so much.

The rifling does not appear deep, but is very clean and shinny with not rust or pitting.

For the red dot load mentioned, would there be some sort of filler required to fill up the case??? I take it a gas check might do more harm than good??

Would wheel weight lead work, as I have a supply of it??

bill

I do not use filler, but I used this load up to 200 yards in the SMLE and No.4 rifles. I have used it with gas check bullets, and plain base with no problem. It was a good target load if you elevated the barrel after loading the cartridge into the chamber so that the powder rested near the back of the case.

Be aware that new wheel weights are not of the same formula and even metal as the older ones. New ones generally have a slick coating on them, and a lot are not lead. If you try to mix old and new ones, you get a grainy mixture that looks like frozen slush, and it will never cast right. In fact, you have to completely clean the melting pot.

Actually for the amount of rounds that you would fire from this firearm, I would load some ammunition with 174 or 180 grain bullets and a starting load of a medium burning powder such as IMR 3031, IMR 4895, IMR 4064 or IMR 4320, or any other suitable powder in that burning range, and not worry too much about it. Just go shoot and have fun.
.

 

[Gary D]

the .303 back powder loads were made using a compressed powder pellet with a flash hole through the centre. It is impossible to get enough BP in a .303 casing to get good performance if you're handloading. Also the early .303 round was actually jacketed in nickle, so no problem with jacketed ammo. Biggest thing is that most metford barrels are worn to the point that any commercial jacketed round just tumbles out of them (as does mine). That said Grant R has a Martini Metford that shoots factory ammo better than most Enfield rifled barrels.