Match grade barrels. Are they really?? :)

[scourge18a]

I disagree. But this may depend on your definition of accuracy. 1 MOA is considered accurate for most anyone but when I spend $800 or more on a barrel I expect better results than a factory Savage.
A bolt gun with equal quality barrel will always be more accurate as for the reasons I mentioned above including a faster lock time. I expect a quality barrel on a bolt gun to garner 1/3 or 1/4 MOA and no one expects there AR to shoot better that 3/4 MOA and are usually surprised if it does better. There are well documented reasons for this.
Is it possible for a gas gun to print small groups? Absolutely, but not as consistently as a bolt gun. You have a much better chance of accuracy with a bolt gun, of course I'm not saying an AR cannot be accurate. This is simple physics and if it weren't the case you'd see more semis in precision matches. A semi may be good enough for PRS since you don't need the ultimate precision and getting shots off quick can be an advantage. But in my mind the bottom line is that with a gas block and tube the barrel is as free floating as a bolt gun that rubs the stock the same way every shot. It's not. The bolt can unlock before the bullet leaves the barrel if using a short gas system on a longer barrel and then there is the reciprocating mass of the BCG. Yes this is for the shooter to figure out but it still happens and cannot be negated 100% no matter how good the shooter is. It just happens, stuff is moving unlike a bolt gun.
There are some ways to lessen the effects of what I just said. Longer gas length and shorter dwell times to keep the bolt locked longer, larger .936 barrels for rigidity, low mass BCGs and buffers for less reciprocating mass, free float hand guards, turn off the gas and run it manually...
My main point is that it's easier and more consistent to gain accuracy from a bolt gun. Of course you can prove me wrong in some instances but I would bet that most guys running an $800+ barrel are not shooting <1/2 MOA that I can do with a Savage let alone what can be done with a Krieger, Bartlein or Benchmark.
Aside from Jerry I have not seen very many tiny groups from gas guns at 100 yards let alone at distance.

 

[Papaclaude]

That's why you don't buy into the "hype"?
Your story has nothing to do with match grade anything, just a story about a guy who was a good shot.

A quality barrel makes a difference.

I totally agree that match grade makes a difference in the hands of an experienced, good shooter. Kinda like good golf clubs, a good camera, or a good bicycle. Worth every penny when you can squeeze the extra performance out of it, but IMHO, not a wise expense if you haven't mastered every other aspect of your art/sport (within reason). The vast majority of out of the box entry-level rifles can outshoot probably 95% of shooters using mid-range factory ammo.

 

[cr5]

A common mistake reloaders have with self loading rifles is trying to load them like a bolt rifle. Each semi system has its design parameters and you have to load to that need - gas port pressure, gas volume, dwell, etc. The AR DI system is one of most forgiving of mil type rifles and why they are shooting so well. The overall design is really smart and when the right combo of ammo is allowed to work, SUB MOA Groups are possible... not the occasional Instagram group.

Jerry

This is exactly why I always try to tell people to stop thinking about reloading for their semi the way they do for their bolt action rifles. Simply picking the heaviest projectile with the lowest BC is not how to do it with a semi. On a 308 Win semi the action is typically designed for ammunition with bullets in the 145-170gr range and I keep my loads in that range. You can easily find loads using 155gr projectiles that will produce fantastic groups out to some impressive ranges and trying to force a heavier projectile into the mix usually just makes you compromise COAL to fit the magazine and those long and heavy bullets can cause feeding problems and can put the gas system out of balance causing reliability issues.

 

[beltfed]

I disagree. But this may depend on your definition of accuracy. 1 MOA is considered accurate for most anyone but when I spend $800 or more on a barrel I expect better results than a factory Savage.
A bolt gun with equal quality barrel will always be more accurate as for the reasons I mentioned above including a faster lock time.

Well, you are certainly welcome to believe whatever you like, but it has nothing to do with lower standards of accuracy if that is what you are implying.
An $800 Krieger barrel either spun onto an AR or a manual action have the same accuracy potential, all things being equal. You can disagree all you like, but proof is in the pudding.
Check out USAMU and NRA high-power shooting - they've only been doing it for 20+years. Their gas guns are good. Not just good for a gas gun, but good for rifles. If there was benefit to running a manual bolt, they'd do it.

 

[Parker-Hale Mike]

A quality bolt gun will always be more accurate than a semi. Anyone who tells you different is not being truthful.

How many semi’s do you see in benchrest? Or F class, or Target rifle, or really in any serious precision match.

 

[scourge18a]

An $800 Krieger barrel either spun onto an AR or a manual action have the same accuracy potential, all things being equal. You can disagree all you like, but proof is in the pudding.

I agree...At the start it's the same barrel and has the same potential. Once installed on an AR it is at a disadvantage. This isn't my thought or opinion but physics and fact.
When there is an advantage to use a semi, like in the disciplines you mentioned, guys will use them. When accuracy and precision matter more than time guys will use bolt guns. That is the pudding, just like how all records for accuracy are set with bolt guns and usually a custom action.

A quality bolt gun will always be more accurate than a semi. Anyone who tells you different is not being truthful.

How many semi’s do you see in benchrest? Or F class, or Target rifle, or really in any serious precision match.

Exactly. The disciplines above are about much more than just precision and accuracy. Positional shooting, offhand shooting, time constraints with high round counts, there are different divisions with different requirements. Like I said, when other factors start to matter you use what works, and when nothing but accuracy and precision matter you use a bolt or a rail gun to limit variables and movement.
Again I'm not saying a semi cannot be accurate or shoot tiny groups, it most certainly can, just less likely.

 

[Papaclaude]

What is behind the gun matters a lot more than the gun or what is in it (within reason).

 

[scourge18a]

^^^
True enough
And I'm sure there are plenty of cases where a factory barrel has out shot a "match grade" barrel. My ugly old Savage 308 continues to surprise me. Makes me question why I have spent big $ on some other barrels.

 

[Gunnerlove]

Match grade pistol barrels?

 

[Papaclaude]

^^^
True enough
And I'm sure there are plenty of cases where a factory barrel has out shot a "match grade" barrel. My ugly old Savage 308 continues to surprise me. Makes me question why I have spent big $ on some other barrels.

I feel for ya. I have a 45-70 Remlin that outshoots almost anything I've ever fired when using Hornady LeverEvolutions.

 

[cr5]

^^^
True enough
And I'm sure there are plenty of cases where a factory barrel has out shot a "match grade" barrel. My ugly old Savage 308 continues to surprise me. Makes me question why I have spent big $ on some other barrels.

The difference is that your factory barrel while it can shoot some very nice groups if you shoot slowly keeping it from getting hot it has not been stress relieved like a high quality barrel and when your barrel gets hot your point of impact will start stringing and your groups open up but that properly stress relieved Krieger or Bartlein (or whatever brand you like) will hold much tighter groups when it gets hot. That's why no competitive shooters win matches with a factory Savage or Rem barrel.
Just as important is quality consistent ammo and quality optics. You need it all if you want tiny repeatable groups and not just a lucky sub 1 moa group every now and then.

I feel for ya. I have a 45-70 Remlin that outshoots almost anything I've ever fired when using Hornady LeverEvolutions.

What is behind the gun matters a lot more than the gun or what is in it (within reason).

My Marlin liked that ammo as well, but it will never shoot a 1/4 or even a 1/2 moa group like a true precision rifle built with a quality receiver and barrel. My buddy has a 6.5 Creedmoor custom rifle that will shoot 1/4 moa out past 800M, I can guarantee that no factory barrel rifle is going to duplicate that. He's also a very good shot and practices regularly out past 1000 yards.

Match grade pistol barrels?

They must show an improvement or people wouldn't keep buying them, I have a "match grade" barrel for my Glock 19, not sure I can tell any difference between it and the factory barrel but then again my load development for my pistols involves cutting the powder charge till it doesn't cycle any more then giving it enough back to ensure reliable function even when it gets dirty, then I just go make noise shooting standing, I've never used a rest to test accuracy. If it hits the gong regularly when I take my time to aim I'm happy with it.

 

[rimlick]

I've seen cheap guns shoot amazing and expensive guns get left in the safe because they shoot like crap. That said I went with an international barrels inc barrel hoping it's as too notch as people say. Plus Canadian to boot.

 

[beltfed]

How many semi’s do you see in benchrest? Or F class, or Target rifle, or really in any serious precision match.

I wouldn’t stack all semis together.
ARs cost more, are more finicky to load certain styles of ammo and bolt guns are easier to get shooting well.

Additionally, there is no advantage to running a semi in any of these matches. Especially when dollar for dollar, a bolt gun will do.
Now you introduce a time component or change the game where there is a restriction of some kind or introduce a semi category, and I believe you’d see a level playing field. Maybe not at first because you have the snobs of these sports, but eventually...

 

[Ironheart]

..with much practice, and commitment, you too can become a 'match grade' shooter without the placebo of your barrel saying Match Grade...

Correct

 

[Papaclaude]

The difference is that your factory barrel while it can shoot some very nice groups if you shoot slowly keeping it from getting hot it has not been stress relieved like a high quality barrel and when your barrel gets hot your point of impact will start stringing and your groups open up but that properly stress relieved Krieger or Bartlein (or whatever brand you like) will hold much tighter groups when it gets hot. That's why no competitive shooters win matches with a factory Savage or Rem barrel.
Just as important is quality consistent ammo and quality optics. You need it all if you want tiny repeatable groups and not just a lucky sub 1 moa group every now and then.




My Marlin liked that ammo as well, but it will never shoot a 1/4 or even a 1/2 moa group like a true precision rifle built with a quality receiver and barrel. My buddy has a 6.5 Creedmoor custom rifle that will shoot 1/4 moa out past 800M, I can guarantee that no factory barrel rifle is going to duplicate that. He's also a very good shot and practices regularly out past 1000 yards.



They must show an improvement or people wouldn't keep buying them, I have a "match grade" barrel for my Glock 19, not sure I can tell any difference between it and the factory barrel but then again my load development for my pistols involves cutting the powder charge till it doesn't cycle any more then giving it enough back to ensure reliable function even when it gets dirty, then I just go make noise shooting standing, I've never used a rest to test accuracy. If it hits the gong regularly when I take my time to aim I'm happy with it.

You're absolutely right that my Remlin never was and never will be a competition gun. If I expected a 16.5" barreled rifle with open sights to shoot on par with a Shilen barreled rig, I'd be a fool. However, my thought was and is, that match grade barrels are not a wise investment until a shooter has mastered pretty much all the other aspects of the sport. My Remlin outshoots me, as does my stock HB 700 in 308 (add-on Hogue stock), but until I can consistently point to the rifle as the limiting factor in my groups, I will be spending my money on ammo. However, I have never pretended to be a shooting authority - it's just what my experience has led me to.