Matching WWI No1 Mk III - Questions

[student of history]

Hi Gents,

I'd like to call upon our resident Lee Enfield experts for their opinions on a recently acquired rifle that's outside my scope of collecting. I'm primarily into USGI and German firearms so I'm familiar with milsurps... just not ones hailing from the Commonwealth.

Based on what I can see, it appears to be a No1MkIII manufactured by LSA in 1916. I've noted matching serial numbers on the receiver, barrel, bolt, rear sights, for-stock and nose cap. I also noted a interesting looking disc on the left side of the stock (which I think was for volley sights) as well as what you gents call a "magazine cut off" in the receiver but am not entirely sure of its purpose. I'd be interested in knowing how original this rifle is, perhaps some production numbers from LSA as well as having the dreaded "how much is it worth question" answered.

If supplementary photos are required, let me know and I'll do my best to comply.

EDIT: The second butt stock was given to me with the rifle as it was just a spare that the gent had laying around.

I appreciate everyone's time.

- Chris













For-stock



Butt-stock

 

[John Sukey]

One wonders why the mag cutoff lasted as long as it did. The original reason was because each round had to be loaded in the magazine one at a time.
When charger loading came along, there was no longer a reason for it.
Supposedly the magazine was to be kept in reserve in case of a cavalry attack. The machine gun took care of that!
There was ONE American cavalry charge in WW1. They got halfway to the German lines only because the Germans couldn't believe what they were seeing. Then the machine guns started firing!

 

[SA85M1]

Nice old Enfield. ..a bit of cleaning and oil and she's good !

 

[lyman54]

Actually in March of 1918 the Canadian Lord Strathcona's Horse charged and captured 300 Germans at the Battle of Moreuil Wood. Charging into machine gun fire, 75 out of 100 were killed or wounded. That's a very nice rifle OP. Lucky man.

 

[mr.e moose]

Nice matching numbers rifle. It has the been there, done that appearance.The mag cut-off was the means to single load the rifle until you hit a SHTF scenario.I would figure the value to be at least $600.00 if not more.It has a replaced rear hand guard but after almost 100 years some bits will be missing.

 

[RedApe]

One wonders why the mag cutoff lasted as long as it did. The original reason was because each round had to be loaded in the magazine one at a time.
When charger loading came along, there was no longer a reason for it.
Supposedly the magazine was to be kept in reserve in case of a cavalry attack. The machine gun took care of that!
There was ONE American cavalry charge in WW1. They got halfway to the German lines only because the Germans couldn't believe what they were seeing. Then the machine guns started firing!

The RCD also conducted numerous cavalry charges during the 100 days period of the war. They we're extremely extatic to once again be charging behind enemy lines cutting down the enemy. They lost many soldiers and horses but managed to finish the war on horse back. http://www.dragoons.ca/ww1.html

Also look up Canadas first armoured machine gun car unit. during the break out they did wonderful harassing damage, before having to retire because of casualties and not being able to go off road.

 

[plinker 777]

I believe it's been FTR'd at some point in time of its life.(not surprising, 2 world wars and 100 years of service and all) Nice rifle and very complete but not all original I'm afraid.

The rear of the original bolt would have looked like this...

.

The rear "peep" aspect of the volley sight has been removed, you can still see the impression of it in the wood (which is super cool)...

.

I can't tell if the front is complete, but here's what it looked like...

.

An expert can chime in to correct me, but I believe the brass rod at the rear of the front stock was also an afterthought improvement to prevent "the damned crack" from manifesting in the stock. I wish I had one as old or complete as yours.

 

[CMichaud]

Since we are going down this road...the Cavalry Brigade should return to the trenches! Read on re the exploits of the Canadian Light Horse on 10 October 1918. The CLH was the Canadian Corps Recce Regiment in WW1

For the soldier of 1914-18 there was little opportunity for the sweeping, mobile campaigns envisioned by the generals at the war's onset. But a wild moment did come for the Canadian Light Horse at Cambrai in 1918.
The glorious charge over the top which the Canadian Light Horse was to have made has materialized-in all except the glory. And this morning we of the Fourth Troop have one horse left on the line to show for the troop's
mad charge. . . . Mr Sharpe and the rest of the 4th Troop, A Squadron, were ordered to follow C Squadron over as a patrolling outpost. Our orders were to proceed to an old farm on a sunken road halfway up a long gentle
incline. There is a small bit of a river course running between the fields of plowed land-from it on the northeast the field slope gently to the crest of the rise about a kilometre away. Our orders took us out around the village of
Naves, across the railroad tracks to the east end of the village and out toward the little river. We spread out into sections-Dan Reaves, Joe Scanlon, Corp. Marlowe and myself on the right, Mr Sharpe, Braggins, Tim Sheppard
and Larry Bell in the centre, and the ma-chine gun section on the left.

While skirting the village we had been galloping along through plowed fields, turnip patches, over spur railroads, steep embank-ments-our horses were quite tired before we came to the little narrow river. At the time
we would have considered it quite impos-sible to jump the stream-but our objective being in sight we charged it and with a heroic struggle every horse got down, jumped and up the other steep side.
Then a mad gallop began. Dan and Joe got tangled up in a telephone line-Joe's old mare went down. Dan had to cut off the saddle to free him-the rest of us galloped on across the field and up the slope. The crest of the hill
was lined with three or four enemy machine guns and as we galloped along they all opened up. Bullets began to plow up the dust and sizzle through the air. Every horse was doing his best. Every rider urging them on toward
the farm, our objective.

A bullet hit old Nix near the right temple-he went down like a stone. I came down on my head-Nix turned over right on top of me. Quivered all over and never moved again. My helmet had rolled away somewhere. I
attempted to get out from under my horse but had a hard struggle to free my feet-at last I raised his legs and got out. I lost no time in getting around behind the horse's body out of the hail of bullets. As I looked around I found
that I had no broken bones-only a battered head and a sprained wrist.

Only a few minutes had elapsed but the rest were just mounting the objective to the road. Joe had cut off his saddle-pulled out his sword-mounted the old mare bareback and dashed to the field past me. He made the
objective too. I saw the boys get to the road-then horse after horse fell down and men rolled off . . . it was a miracle indeed that anyone of us came out at all as such a mad adventure was never seen before.

Taken from Daniel G. Dancocks, Spearhead to Victory (1987), pp. 175-6

 

[student of history]

I believe it's been FTR'd at some point in time of its life.(not surprising, 2 world wars and 100 years of service and all) Nice rifle and very complete but not all original I'm afraid.

The rear of the original bolt would have looked like this...

.

Thank you for taking the time to offer your input on this rifle. I don't think it's possible to debate the fact that the volley sights have been taken off the rifle but could that not have been done in the field? If the rifle was "FTR'd" as you put it, wouldn't the magazine cut off also have been removed? Or at the very least, wouldn't it have been marked FTR on the receiver? I'm not trying to rebut you as I admitedly don't know a great deal about Enfields, I'm just asking general questions.

Oh and according to some gentlemen on another forum - the flat groove cocking pieces were officially introduced on the 5th of August 1916. If that's the case, is it not possible that the cocking piece is original?

- Chris

 

[live4therut]

Well this thread is getting derailed. Thanks for Calvary history lesson.

I believe it's been FTR'd at some point in time of its life.(not surprising, 2 world wars and 100 years of service and all) Nice rifle and very complete but not all original I'm afraid.

The rear of the original bolt would have looked like this...

.

The rear "peep" aspect of the volley sight has been removed, you can still see the impression of it in the wood (which is super cool)...

.

I can't tell if the front is complete, but here's what it looked like...

.

An expert can chime in to correct me, but I believe the brass rod at the rear of the front stock was also an afterthought improvement to prevent "the damned crack" from manifesting in the stock. I wish I had one as old or complete as yours.

The op's rifle could potentially have a correct type B cocking piece as they started changing them in 1916 and can be often seen on later rifles as supply was used up. For example my 1917 SSA peddle scheme has a type B, but my 1918 SSA has a type A.

 

[BadgerDog]

Very nice rifle...

Here's a similar old girl in the Knowledge Library, albeit mfg by Enfield. The MKL example includes an installed "Flanders Flap" ...

1917 ShtLE (Short Lee-Enfield) No.1 MkIII*
(Mfg by BSA - Birmingham Small Arms)

In the 1917 example above, note the large dent shown in the side of the forestock in a few of the pics of the photo virtual tour. At first glance it appears to be wood damage from some kind of impact, when in reality, it actually indicates that the stock of this rifle was from old supplies that had already been cut-out, in preparation for installing the front volley sight. By the time this rifle had been manufactured in 1917, the use of front and rear volley sights on No.1 rifles had been discontinued, as of January 1916.


(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Regards,
Doug

 

[plinker 777]

Thank you for taking the time to offer your input on this rifle. I don't think it's possible to debate the fact that the volley sights have been taken off the rifle but could that not have been done in the field? If the rifle was "FTR'd" as you put it, wouldn't the magazine cut off also have been removed? Or at the very least, wouldn't it have been marked FTR on the receiver? I'm not trying to rebut you as I admitedly don't know a great deal about Enfields, I'm just asking general questions.

Oh and according to some gentlemen on another forum - the flat groove cocking pieces were officially introduced on the 5th of August 1916. If that's the case, is it not possible that the cocking piece is original?

- Chris

No worries Chris, there are experts here and I certainly don't claim to be one of them. The only thing that I am 100% certain of, is that the only thing consistent about Lee Enfield's are the inconsistencies of them. Take FTR for example, when going through the process some may have not been stamped. Are there rifles that are stamped? Yep, most of them. Are there FTR'd rifles without a stamp that have clearly been factory refurbished? Yep. Were the magazine cut off plates removed during the FTR process? Yep. Were all of them removed? Nope. Were volley sights ever removed in the field? I dunno, maybe. Were they always removed during FTR? Nope. Were they supposed to all be removed? Yep.
The cocking piece has me scratching my head though. I have never seen a 1916, '17, '18 with a "type b" cocking piece that wasn't a replacement one. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Nope.

Listen, I meant no disrespect. I love the rifle, however you asked the "how much is it worth" question. I suppose all I was saying is, it isn't worth absolute original, all matching, 1916 rifle $'s to me. The cocking piece and removal of the sights tell me so. (there are condition issues as well...jump on the active rust) Having said that it is very complete, I say source the parts that are missing and you will have a very cool rifle. (not that you don't now...you do.)