I starting a build on a 98 mauser action. Im building a bear gun, I want it to be short light and tough. Im still deciding between 338 win mag and 458 win mag. How short could I go with either of these calibers? is 20" too short for these big bores? Any help is much appreciated.
mauser build
- Thread starter Slimbo
- Start date
- Location
- Hillbilly shack in the boonies
350 rem mag 
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Slimbo -
What kind of bears are we talking about, and what is the contest of the use - hunting or defence?
A rifle chambered for the .30-06 and up will work fine as a bear hunting rifle, but the .458 is superior as a bear stopping rifle. I would however, not recommend a powerful rifle for the individual who is not going to make the investment in time and money to become competent with it. If you do not shoot regularly, IMHO you are better armed with the '06 loaded with heavy round nosed bullets.
On a more positive note, your choice of action is a good one - as is your choice of barrel length. Top this off with a good quality synthetic stock, a good quality low power scope mounted in strong steel mounts and/or a ghost ring and post and you are off to the races. The rifle should be light and quick when finished, and it should fit you like a glove. Custom rifle building is a hoot ain't it!
What kind of bears are we talking about, and what is the contest of the use - hunting or defence?
A rifle chambered for the .30-06 and up will work fine as a bear hunting rifle, but the .458 is superior as a bear stopping rifle. I would however, not recommend a powerful rifle for the individual who is not going to make the investment in time and money to become competent with it. If you do not shoot regularly, IMHO you are better armed with the '06 loaded with heavy round nosed bullets.
On a more positive note, your choice of action is a good one - as is your choice of barrel length. Top this off with a good quality synthetic stock, a good quality low power scope mounted in strong steel mounts and/or a ghost ring and post and you are off to the races. The rifle should be light and quick when finished, and it should fit you like a glove. Custom rifle building is a hoot ain't it!
Slimbo said:
I have both, so I'll try to answer your question without trying to swerve you off your 'course'...
I'd go with the .338, and here's why.
- It works just fine out of shorter barrels, although I'd go to 21 -22 inches, not so much for velocity, but to get that gawdawful racket a little farther from my head! 21-22 inches is still plenty short. A good .338 shoots very flat, is capable of superb accuracy, and you can learn to shoot it well in short order.
- A .338 is very common, and you can pick up a box of factory loads anywhere. .458 has become kind of scarce recently, and I've even had a tough time scrounging up some brass.
- A .338 recoils less, and can be built in a considerably lighter rifle than can a .458. I have a .338 that's barely 7 pounds (in iron sights), but it fits me like a glove, and I can shoot it all day with full-bore 250 gr. loads. My .458 fits well too, but it's less comfortable, and 2.5 pounds heavier.
- A .338 has plenty of 'jam' for anything that walks, crawls or flies on this continent. Period. The only real reason for having a .458 is because we want one (and yes, that's reason enough!)...but a .338 is surely adequate, and a lot more versatile. I guarantee you'd use it more often, and probably enjoy it more. If you get the urge for some "thunder & lightning", just borrow a .458 for an afternoon...
Your choice of building on a Mauser is perfect, in my opinion.
The rifle is going to be a bear defence/work gun. I come into contact with lots of black bears, and a few grizzlies now and then when I am at work (i work in the forest industry). Ive been carrying my mossberg 590A1 20 incher up untill now, but its just so damn heavy when fully loaded. I shoot and reload regularily so being proficient with the rifle should not be a problem. I am definatly open to supported suggestions of other calibers....458 just jumped out at me because ive always kind of had an itch for one. I had a winchester model 70 in 338 as well and I really like that caliber but hated the rifle, so she had to go. I already have lots of brass and the needed reloading equipment for the 338 as well, so theres another pro in its favor.Im not really familiar with "wideneing the bolt face" as this is my first rifle build...is that just widening the claws to the fatter magnum rounds will fit under them? I have a set of solid steel aperature sights and would mount those and have a gold faced blade on a vent ribbed barrel.
thanks for the help guys
thanks for the help guys
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"Widening the bolt face" will mean cutting the outside ledge on the bolt face back (a machining job) to fit magnum sized brass. Another reason to go with the 35 Whelen. You may also have issues with the receiver feed lips when converting to magnum cartridges (although not always, I have a 98 in 350 RM that didn't require any lip massaging at all). - dan
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I use a Win94 Trapper (16" barrel) for this type of application (defense against black bears at close range). 45LC loaded with hard cast flat nose 325gr gas checked bullets in Starline brass and H110 powder. Velocity is 1550fps.
Doing penetration and destruction tests at short range (35 to 40yds), this little combo does more then the big 30 cal magnums I have.
That big flat nose displaces a crazy amount of phone books and water filled milk jugs. Recoil is moderate light and very controllable. Rifle is small, light, fast to cycle and quick to aim. Best part is that it is accurate to beyond 150yds.
Works for me...
If you like the concept but want more horsepower, there is some levers actions (maybe not available in Canada yet) that are chambered for the 454 Casull and 480Ruger. In a short carbine, these will equal or exceed the standard 45-70 loads by a significant margin. You are approaching 70 to 80% of the mighty 458Win.
Jerry
Doing penetration and destruction tests at short range (35 to 40yds), this little combo does more then the big 30 cal magnums I have.
That big flat nose displaces a crazy amount of phone books and water filled milk jugs. Recoil is moderate light and very controllable. Rifle is small, light, fast to cycle and quick to aim. Best part is that it is accurate to beyond 150yds.
Works for me...
If you like the concept but want more horsepower, there is some levers actions (maybe not available in Canada yet) that are chambered for the 454 Casull and 480Ruger. In a short carbine, these will equal or exceed the standard 45-70 loads by a significant margin. You are approaching 70 to 80% of the mighty 458Win.
Jerry
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
With the possibility of a grizzly encounter gone bad - I'd want all the power I could handle. A .458 wouldn't be my first choice because of the limited powder capacity, but with the right bullet, and given that by definition defence shooting takes place at close range it's not a bad choice. Brass isn't a big problem for the reloader - if you have access to .338 brass - it can be resized to .458. The .458 bullet has a frontal area which exceeds that of the .338 by 74%. It's low impact velocity assures good bullet performance. I had a newspaper article from back in the '70's where a group of hunters were attacked by a mother grizzly and 2 yearling cubs. They were shooting .338's and had significant difficulty bringing things to a conclusion. Often problem bears are youngsters and as a result smaller than the big males everyone assumes will be the problem, but you can't count on that. Lots of folks say - "Hey this isn't Africa - you don't need that level of power here!" Perhaps not when we are talking about hunting rifles, but that is not the case here. Those of us who are around large bears on a regular basis, and who are charged with protecting other people have another opinion. A .458 loaded with a 450 gr. TSX would be a good place to start, for those who can handle it.
Mausers are ok actions to build on....I had a 338 made by Trillus many years ago and it required a lot of work on the Argentine M98 (DWM) action: opening the bolt face, adjusting the feed rails and the magazine .... he brazed a small extension into the mag which opened the width a little and improved feeding of the fatter cartridges etc....it went in a "Lee Six" fiber glass stock. I found a Canjar 2 Lever trigger for it etc etc. Anyway...all to say that while it was ok I think a BRNO (stock out of the box) - or CZ - is a better way to go in many respects if you like "98" style actions and are looking for one of the more recent commercial chamberings .....
FWIW - The 338 required quite a bit of work on that particular action. As you know '98 actions come in various lengths .. I would first select a cartridge that works with your action length. I would also avoid the big belted cases as they will take more work to get them to feed properly...which could result in a single shot rifle at the worst time!
I think that the military mauser actions work best with the cartridge they were originally designed/chambered with....fwiw - I experienced an Israeli m98 rebarreled to 7.62 that was not feeding 100% properly and had excessive headspace..presumably from a little locking lug setback.
If I had a decent M98 in 8mm Mauser for example .. I would stay "stock" with the action and get all of the dependability that Peter Paul Mauser designed into it....anyway - there is nothing shoddy about an 8x57 (7.92 Mauser) and it shouldn't be too hard to get 2500fps with a 200 gr bullet out of a reasonable length barrel....
If you have one of the longer actions that accept 30/06 length cartridges I would go with a 35 Whelan.
I will add that in deference to Boomers comment above (and I accept his wisdom on the subject of big quick bears) ...if a 458W is in the cards ... and it sounds like it should be...I would not base it on a surplus M98 action. Personally I am a fan of the BRNO's .....or Sako's ... and might also look at the 375H&H with 300gr in that cartridge ....however I am NOT a bear expert....maybe you should stick with the 458
FWIW - The 338 required quite a bit of work on that particular action. As you know '98 actions come in various lengths .. I would first select a cartridge that works with your action length. I would also avoid the big belted cases as they will take more work to get them to feed properly...which could result in a single shot rifle at the worst time!
I think that the military mauser actions work best with the cartridge they were originally designed/chambered with....fwiw - I experienced an Israeli m98 rebarreled to 7.62 that was not feeding 100% properly and had excessive headspace..presumably from a little locking lug setback.
If I had a decent M98 in 8mm Mauser for example .. I would stay "stock" with the action and get all of the dependability that Peter Paul Mauser designed into it....anyway - there is nothing shoddy about an 8x57 (7.92 Mauser) and it shouldn't be too hard to get 2500fps with a 200 gr bullet out of a reasonable length barrel....
If you have one of the longer actions that accept 30/06 length cartridges I would go with a 35 Whelan.
I will add that in deference to Boomers comment above (and I accept his wisdom on the subject of big quick bears) ...if a 458W is in the cards ... and it sounds like it should be...I would not base it on a surplus M98 action. Personally I am a fan of the BRNO's .....or Sako's ... and might also look at the 375H&H with 300gr in that cartridge ....however I am NOT a bear expert....maybe you should stick with the 458
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Ill definatly check out the BRNO and CZ actions....does anyone know where they can be had in canada...and approximatly how much they cost? also.....a new remington caught my eye last night. how does everyone feel about the model seven in 350 rem mag? I know nothing about this cartridge....is it an effective dangerous game round? thanks again for the help.
I think Elmer Keith said that once you get to 2700 fps with any cartridge...if you want more power...add more bullet weight...not velocity. I personally subscribe to this opinion.
The 350 RM gets about 2700fps with the 200gr bullet; with a 250 grain bullet it can deliver about 2500fps muzzle velocity. I have a 350 RM in a model 700 Classic..it is accurate and effective...BUT my only experience with this cartridge has been deer. And 225 Nosler Partition - as I found out once - doesn't even seem to slow down on the way through a deer....its a great cartridge .. and with lighter bullet weights good for deer...heavier bullet weights suit moose very well.
It will be a little hard getting more than 2500fps out of a 250gr bullet with a 20 inch model 7 in 350 RM..BUT they are wonderfully handy to carry and manoeuver very well in the bush...as I know from using a Model 600 Mohawk fwiw.
BUT again .. I have no experience in dealing with charging bears (big or small) but I am certainly impressed with how fast they can move if they are motivated....
CZ seems to have replaced the BRNO line...so for a new rifle CZ may be easier to find; I just don't know who retails them now....
The 350 RM gets about 2700fps with the 200gr bullet; with a 250 grain bullet it can deliver about 2500fps muzzle velocity. I have a 350 RM in a model 700 Classic..it is accurate and effective...BUT my only experience with this cartridge has been deer. And 225 Nosler Partition - as I found out once - doesn't even seem to slow down on the way through a deer....its a great cartridge .. and with lighter bullet weights good for deer...heavier bullet weights suit moose very well.
It will be a little hard getting more than 2500fps out of a 250gr bullet with a 20 inch model 7 in 350 RM..BUT they are wonderfully handy to carry and manoeuver very well in the bush...as I know from using a Model 600 Mohawk fwiw.
BUT again .. I have no experience in dealing with charging bears (big or small) but I am certainly impressed with how fast they can move if they are motivated....
CZ seems to have replaced the BRNO line...so for a new rifle CZ may be easier to find; I just don't know who retails them now....
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unless you are bent on using a M98 pattern, your best bang-for-the-buck is to buy a Ruger Mk2 All-Weather (stainless/synthetic) in 338 WM or 350 RM and get the barrel chopped and sights added. The Ruger has rock solid scope mounting, a super simple trigger mechanism, and a reliable and easy to use safety.
I used a 18-1/2" Sako AV in 338 when I first worked in the bush, and pretty quickly went to a 4" 629. Even a 20" bolt gun loaded will be as heavy or heavier than your 590
If I was going to do a low budget iron sighted bear gun, I'd find a decent milsurp like a VZ24, then get a 35 Whelen A&B barrel from Midway when they sell them with a plastic stock together for $120 or so. The 35 WHelen with a 250 grain bullet will work well with a 20" barrel, and for interior bears would be (in practical terms) as effective as a 350 RM or 338 WM, with the added advantage of a five round capacity. You wouldn;t need any work to the action with a Whelen, all you'd need to do is drill and tap for the rear peep sight.
I used a 18-1/2" Sako AV in 338 when I first worked in the bush, and pretty quickly went to a 4" 629. Even a 20" bolt gun loaded will be as heavy or heavier than your 590
If I was going to do a low budget iron sighted bear gun, I'd find a decent milsurp like a VZ24, then get a 35 Whelen A&B barrel from Midway when they sell them with a plastic stock together for $120 or so. The 35 WHelen with a 250 grain bullet will work well with a 20" barrel, and for interior bears would be (in practical terms) as effective as a 350 RM or 338 WM, with the added advantage of a five round capacity. You wouldn;t need any work to the action with a Whelen, all you'd need to do is drill and tap for the rear peep sight.
