84mmcarl-gustav
Regular
- Location
- Québec,Montréal
About the configuration,40 inches total lenght,bent bolt,if somebody have any idée,let me know ,
thanks
Last edited:
Mauser erfurt 1887 mod 71/84 11mm(.43)
- Thread starter 84mmcarl-gustav
- Start date
About the configuration,40 inches total lenght,bent bolt,if somebody have any idée,let me know ,
thanks
Well, friend, somebody is bound to tell you that it has been cut down rather badly and that it isn't worth beans. To that, I say, "When you have something this nice and with this much history to it, who cares about dollars?"
Yes, you have a German IG 1871/84. It has had the stock, magazine and barrel all shortened. That's the bad part. The good part is that the bolt handle is SUPPOSED to be straight..... but there were a number of these that were sportered and the bolts bent commercially, many years ago. For some reason, these seem to show up more in Quebec than they do out here, possibly because our old farmers were cheaper than your old farmers! So that might be something to research.
Ammunition for these was made in the USA by Remington until the 1940s and in Canada by Dominion until 1968, when IVI bought them out, put the old cartridges out of production and refused even to honour orders already on the books (I had 100 rounds of brass for this and 100 rounds of .455 brass on order at the time). Instead, they destroyed it all. Sometimes you can still find a box of ammo or some empties at a gun show.
Lee precision makes the dies and they work very well. The correct bullet is a .446 and the bore is a .433. You can use a .44 HEAVY pistol bullet if you paper-patch it with about 2 full turns of a 24-pound paper. For powder you can use 77 grains of Ffg Black OR you can use 29 grains of SR-4759. Power ia bout the equal of a .30-30. but that BIG bullet makes a world of difference.
These are a LOT of fun to shoot, friend.
You have a Very Nice Toy.
Yes, you have a German IG 1871/84. It has had the stock, magazine and barrel all shortened. That's the bad part. The good part is that the bolt handle is SUPPOSED to be straight..... but there were a number of these that were sportered and the bolts bent commercially, many years ago. For some reason, these seem to show up more in Quebec than they do out here, possibly because our old farmers were cheaper than your old farmers! So that might be something to research.
Ammunition for these was made in the USA by Remington until the 1940s and in Canada by Dominion until 1968, when IVI bought them out, put the old cartridges out of production and refused even to honour orders already on the books (I had 100 rounds of brass for this and 100 rounds of .455 brass on order at the time). Instead, they destroyed it all. Sometimes you can still find a box of ammo or some empties at a gun show.
Lee precision makes the dies and they work very well. The correct bullet is a .446 and the bore is a .433. You can use a .44 HEAVY pistol bullet if you paper-patch it with about 2 full turns of a 24-pound paper. For powder you can use 77 grains of Ffg Black OR you can use 29 grains of SR-4759. Power ia bout the equal of a .30-30. but that BIG bullet makes a world of difference.
These are a LOT of fun to shoot, friend.
You have a Very Nice Toy.
84mmcarl-gustav
Regular
- Location
- Québec,Montréal
Hi ,i found this on the net.this is maybe a start.
71/84 German Rifles with a unique North American History which is outlined. In 1914 when Canada entered WW1 A number of Home Guard units were created. Included was a unit in the City of Quebec (The Quebec Home Guard) unlike the Montreal Home Guard, the Q.H.G. lacked the larger finical backing and less expensive weapons were acquired. Approximately 3 to 4 hundred surplus model 71/84 were acquired from bannerman in New York and issued to the Home Guard. All of these full configuration rifles were marked with an issue number and Q.H.G. Following WW1 the original rifles were placed in storage until the 1980's. A number of years ago I acquired a small lot as offered here. The history of these pieces is as follows: At the end of WW1 the Home Guad turned over a number of 71/84 rifles to the regiment Zuave. The members of this unit acted as guards for the Catholic Church in Quebec in the similar manner as the papal or Swiss guards but for purposes for Church parades, festivals etc. The rifles were modified by or for the regiment Zuave as follows: The barrels were cut back to 24" and the fore stock shortend. The rifles were modified to single shot and to fire 11 mm blank cartridges. Each piece was issued with a unique bayonet which was a cut back nickel snider bayonet, 10" blade and modified socket. The scabbard was shortened and modified to fit the Quebec built frog which were built in Quebec in 1914 by S. Fisher and sons, and so marked with the Q.H.G. stamp and the issued number.
71/84 German Rifles with a unique North American History which is outlined. In 1914 when Canada entered WW1 A number of Home Guard units were created. Included was a unit in the City of Quebec (The Quebec Home Guard) unlike the Montreal Home Guard, the Q.H.G. lacked the larger finical backing and less expensive weapons were acquired. Approximately 3 to 4 hundred surplus model 71/84 were acquired from bannerman in New York and issued to the Home Guard. All of these full configuration rifles were marked with an issue number and Q.H.G. Following WW1 the original rifles were placed in storage until the 1980's. A number of years ago I acquired a small lot as offered here. The history of these pieces is as follows: At the end of WW1 the Home Guad turned over a number of 71/84 rifles to the regiment Zuave. The members of this unit acted as guards for the Catholic Church in Quebec in the similar manner as the papal or Swiss guards but for purposes for Church parades, festivals etc. The rifles were modified by or for the regiment Zuave as follows: The barrels were cut back to 24" and the fore stock shortend. The rifles were modified to single shot and to fire 11 mm blank cartridges. Each piece was issued with a unique bayonet which was a cut back nickel snider bayonet, 10" blade and modified socket. The scabbard was shortened and modified to fit the Quebec built frog which were built in Quebec in 1914 by S. Fisher and sons, and so marked with the Q.H.G. stamp and the issued number.
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
Once saw a 71/84 mouser at a gun shop that had a bent bolt. UPS bent the bolt handle BACKWARDS. Imagine the force necessary to do THAT
I had one of those way back. I saved all the Dominion brass and sold them to a fellow back in Richmond, BC in the mid 1980's ... about 3 boxes for $30 if I recall correctly. I also sold the rifle to someone in Vancouver, maybe the same fellow, also for $30. I only paid $1 for it to a farmer in Manitoba who had it in his attic, so I guess I came out ahead. It was sure fun to shoot.
Clearly, a lot of us don't know a helluvva lot about what has been going on in Quebec for so many years! There is a lot of interesting history there.
I rather like the idea of the Zouave guards for the Church. In Newfoundland, where there was NO militia or defence apparatus of any sort until the outbreak of the Great War, the Anglican Church had the CLB: Church Lads' Brigade and the Roman Catholic Church, of course, had its own military-style guard. All seem to have been armed heavily with Martinis and other deadly things, but nobody ever shot anybody and they looked good in parades, which is mostly what it was about.
Does this rifle have the QHG stampings on the woodwork?
This rifle's magazine looks to have been modded to about 4 rounds but more I can't tell without actually seeing the old critter.
I do know that there were various commercial modifications of the original 1871/84 rifles and these did make a lot of sense, given that you wanted to use the thing for hunting. They were a REAL chore to pack around, otherwise: long, heavy and clumsy, all at the same time. There WAS commercial conversion done as this rifle, bent bolt and all and I am wondering if this rifle was part of that batch. It sure looks nicely done, that's for sure.
But that is a matter of interest. For pure fun, though, you have one of the finest! If you can add some real history, especially LOCAL history, to that, then you have a real chunk of our nation's past.
But even without the extra history, it's still a nice old rifle and one that I would be very happy to own. The metalwork in these was like SILK.
Enjoy!
I rather like the idea of the Zouave guards for the Church. In Newfoundland, where there was NO militia or defence apparatus of any sort until the outbreak of the Great War, the Anglican Church had the CLB: Church Lads' Brigade and the Roman Catholic Church, of course, had its own military-style guard. All seem to have been armed heavily with Martinis and other deadly things, but nobody ever shot anybody and they looked good in parades, which is mostly what it was about.
Does this rifle have the QHG stampings on the woodwork?
This rifle's magazine looks to have been modded to about 4 rounds but more I can't tell without actually seeing the old critter.
I do know that there were various commercial modifications of the original 1871/84 rifles and these did make a lot of sense, given that you wanted to use the thing for hunting. They were a REAL chore to pack around, otherwise: long, heavy and clumsy, all at the same time. There WAS commercial conversion done as this rifle, bent bolt and all and I am wondering if this rifle was part of that batch. It sure looks nicely done, that's for sure.
But that is a matter of interest. For pure fun, though, you have one of the finest! If you can add some real history, especially LOCAL history, to that, then you have a real chunk of our nation's past.
But even without the extra history, it's still a nice old rifle and one that I would be very happy to own. The metalwork in these was like SILK.
Enjoy!
84mmcarl-gustav
Regular
- Location
- Québec,Montréal
Hi,the barrel as been (cut) down 6.90 inches ?,i can tel you the cut as been done by a very good gunsmith,bend bolt too.
Rifing good,bolt,mechanism,receiver after good cleanup,work like a charm.
Rifing good,bolt,mechanism,receiver after good cleanup,work like a charm.
Commercial job, then. Most of the poor things look like the barrel was taken off with a battle-axe!
Likely commercially sportered in the 1900-1914 period. It is likely that a few more would have been done right after the Great War, when the Germans surrendered those 4 million rifles. A lot of those were 71/84s, as they tried to keep as many 98s as they could.
I would be looking for old magazines with advertising in them and old mail-order catalogues. I think that's where you will find the information you are looking for.
Local library or museum might be able to help. You would be surprised at some of the paperwork they have hiding in their back rooms.
Good luck and good shooting!
Likely commercially sportered in the 1900-1914 period. It is likely that a few more would have been done right after the Great War, when the Germans surrendered those 4 million rifles. A lot of those were 71/84s, as they tried to keep as many 98s as they could.
I would be looking for old magazines with advertising in them and old mail-order catalogues. I think that's where you will find the information you are looking for.
Local library or museum might be able to help. You would be surprised at some of the paperwork they have hiding in their back rooms.
Good luck and good shooting!
stevejones
Regular
- Location
- Courtenay, BC
Sporterized
I have a 71/84 that is identical. Mint bore and the action is slick as can be. I have some brass and will be casting bullets soon. I can't wait to try her out.
I have a 71/84 that is identical. Mint bore and the action is slick as can be. I have some brass and will be casting bullets soon. I can't wait to try her out.
These are much too close and much too well-done to be the products of Bubba & Co.
Without doubt, these are commercial conversions. As such, they have TWO histories to carry along with them and definitely should NOT be smeared with the name of That Horrid Person With The Hacksaw Who Hides In The Garage.
Beautiful rifles, both of them.
Enjoy!
Without doubt, these are commercial conversions. As such, they have TWO histories to carry along with them and definitely should NOT be smeared with the name of That Horrid Person With The Hacksaw Who Hides In The Garage.
Beautiful rifles, both of them.
Enjoy!
84mmcarl-gustav
Regular
- Location
- Québec,Montréal
hello.i found this one on the net.
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84mmcarl-gustav
Regular
- Location
- Québec,Montréal
MauserMike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
Nice one! Love the stock and the set trigger
Just picked two of these up. One with a 18.5 inch bbl with a turned down bolt and mint bore.
One question to those who know - the ejector (square) rod -- is it supposed to travel back and forth on the left hand side of the bolt as you cycle the bolt?
They are neat guns.
Good information here. Thanks
One question to those who know - the ejector (square) rod -- is it supposed to travel back and forth on the left hand side of the bolt as you cycle the bolt?
They are neat guns.
Good information here. Thanks
hmm - found some pictures and I think I answered my own question - it appears that the ejector may be broken (on both!!) off before the rear thicker piece.
I am nopt sure now that I look at the parts schematics ---- maybe the tail end of the ejector is supposed to be a little loose??
I am nopt sure now that I look at the parts schematics ---- maybe the tail end of the ejector is supposed to be a little loose??
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Okay Paintball Guy, you have asked a fair question, but I don't think there is a fair answer.
For one thing, this is Canada. The .45-70 (which fits this action beautifully) was never regarded as much of a "Canadian" cartridge. When I started shooting (just about 50 years ago), .45-70 ammo made in Canada already was collectors' stuff. Any .45-70 ammo around was imported from the USA, either Remington-UMC or Winchester-Western. Canadian was rare already.
On the other hand, every hardware store in the country had a box of.43 Mauser. It was $3.65 a box as compared to $5 or even more for the .45-70 (if you could find it) and it was every bit as good a cartridge. The .45-70 was a .45-cal cartridge loaded with 70 grains of Black and a bullet anything from 350 through to 405 to 500. The .43 Mauser was a true .44 (bullet diameter is .446) with 77 grains of Black and a 386-grain bullet at significanly higher velocity than the .45-70.
The.43 was here, it was common, it was available, it was smokeless and it was a BETTER CARTRIDGE than the .45-70. As to .45-90, which would have been interesting, it already was collectors' status only.
The .43 Mauser dropped in popularity for many years, finally almost dropping out of sight when all those War Two rifles hit the market. By about 1965, Dominion was the last company in the world making it.
And that was just about when modern milsurp collecting took off. The Americans realised that there was Something Good to their North: a factory which was making all the old-time calibres which had gone out of style in the States: .25 Remington, .32 Remington, .219 Zipper, 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, 6.5x55, .22 Savage High Power, 455 Colt, .22 Winchester Rim Fire, .22 Remington Special, .22 Winchester Rimfire Automatic, .22 Remington Auto, .32 RF Short, .32 RF Long, .25RF, .25 Stevens RF, .38RF Short, .38RF Long, 32-40 and a PILE of others. And .43 Mauser with a slight alteration to enable it to fit all those Spanish Remingtons that were on the market (and that we couldn't get).
It looked as if the .43 had an assured future.
Then IVI bought out the old Dominion Cartridge Company and all they gave half a dam for was the police and the military. They scrapped all existing stocks of old-time ammo and didn't even honour orders which were on the books for ammo and components. They listed only TWO pistol calibres, .38 Special and 9mm Luger..... and would not sell 9mm to civilians. And they chopped the rifle cartridges list by better than 80%, including the .43 Mauser and an entire LINE of really good .22 Match ammo. After all, when you've got the Government in your pocket, who cares about the stupid Canadian public? THEN they started making ammunition which was plain dangerous, then spent the following 20-odd years trying to live that one down.
And that brings us to today. The .43 Mauser is still a better cartridge than the .45-70 but it's not available... and it would cost a ton of money to rebarrel a Mauser to the less-useful American cartridge. A .45-90 conversion might fly, or possibly a .40-82 but, in both cases, you are up against the brass problem. Easier just to shoot them as they were built: as a true .44-77-386 which happens to have ".43M" stamped on the case-head. And you can duplicate that old Dominion smokeless load with 29 grains of SR-4759 and the correct bullet.
Hope this helps.
.
For one thing, this is Canada. The .45-70 (which fits this action beautifully) was never regarded as much of a "Canadian" cartridge. When I started shooting (just about 50 years ago), .45-70 ammo made in Canada already was collectors' stuff. Any .45-70 ammo around was imported from the USA, either Remington-UMC or Winchester-Western. Canadian was rare already.
On the other hand, every hardware store in the country had a box of.43 Mauser. It was $3.65 a box as compared to $5 or even more for the .45-70 (if you could find it) and it was every bit as good a cartridge. The .45-70 was a .45-cal cartridge loaded with 70 grains of Black and a bullet anything from 350 through to 405 to 500. The .43 Mauser was a true .44 (bullet diameter is .446) with 77 grains of Black and a 386-grain bullet at significanly higher velocity than the .45-70.
The.43 was here, it was common, it was available, it was smokeless and it was a BETTER CARTRIDGE than the .45-70. As to .45-90, which would have been interesting, it already was collectors' status only.
The .43 Mauser dropped in popularity for many years, finally almost dropping out of sight when all those War Two rifles hit the market. By about 1965, Dominion was the last company in the world making it.
And that was just about when modern milsurp collecting took off. The Americans realised that there was Something Good to their North: a factory which was making all the old-time calibres which had gone out of style in the States: .25 Remington, .32 Remington, .219 Zipper, 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, 6.5x55, .22 Savage High Power, 455 Colt, .22 Winchester Rim Fire, .22 Remington Special, .22 Winchester Rimfire Automatic, .22 Remington Auto, .32 RF Short, .32 RF Long, .25RF, .25 Stevens RF, .38RF Short, .38RF Long, 32-40 and a PILE of others. And .43 Mauser with a slight alteration to enable it to fit all those Spanish Remingtons that were on the market (and that we couldn't get).
It looked as if the .43 had an assured future.
Then IVI bought out the old Dominion Cartridge Company and all they gave half a dam for was the police and the military. They scrapped all existing stocks of old-time ammo and didn't even honour orders which were on the books for ammo and components. They listed only TWO pistol calibres, .38 Special and 9mm Luger..... and would not sell 9mm to civilians. And they chopped the rifle cartridges list by better than 80%, including the .43 Mauser and an entire LINE of really good .22 Match ammo. After all, when you've got the Government in your pocket, who cares about the stupid Canadian public? THEN they started making ammunition which was plain dangerous, then spent the following 20-odd years trying to live that one down.
And that brings us to today. The .43 Mauser is still a better cartridge than the .45-70 but it's not available... and it would cost a ton of money to rebarrel a Mauser to the less-useful American cartridge. A .45-90 conversion might fly, or possibly a .40-82 but, in both cases, you are up against the brass problem. Easier just to shoot them as they were built: as a true .44-77-386 which happens to have ".43M" stamped on the case-head. And you can duplicate that old Dominion smokeless load with 29 grains of SR-4759 and the correct bullet.
Hope this helps.
.
stevejones
Regular
- Location
- Courtenay, BC
Ejector replacement?
Ok, so I have the same problem with one of my 43's. Can anyone contribute there knowledge on how to produce a replacement? I suppose this should be in the gunsmithing forum but because its so specific to an antique it would not be too out of place...Perhaps a link may be available?
Cheers. Steve.
Ok, so I have the same problem with one of my 43's. Can anyone contribute there knowledge on how to produce a replacement? I suppose this should be in the gunsmithing forum but because its so specific to an antique it would not be too out of place...Perhaps a link may be available?
Cheers. Steve.
If the ejector is broken off and does not project ahead of the bolt face, you can shoot the gun like a model 71 and just roll the gun to the right. The absence of the ejector allows you to use 45-70 cases because you no longer need the rebated head. As long as you stick with black powder, the cases will balloon out to fit the chamber but seem to hold the pressure. They are a bit short also but at least it is a cheap source of shells. I would definitely anneal the 45-70 shells before fire forming.
cheers mooncoon
stevejones
Regular
- Location
- Courtenay, BC
Anealing 101
I like this solution! Much simpler than making a new ejector too... So Mooncoon, could you please edify us briefly on the subject of cartridge case annealing?
I like this solution! Much simpler than making a new ejector too... So Mooncoon, could you please edify us briefly on the subject of cartridge case annealing?
