Max 45LC loads for Ruger Redhawk and Win 94AE

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theshootist

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I've begun handloading for my Ruger Redhawk and Winchester 94AE 16" trapper lever action both in 45 Colt.

I have a few questions and also looking for a stout load that will perform well in both guns.

I have been making hard cast (unsure what defines hard cast) bullets using pure clip-on wheel weights. They are water quenched in ice water straight from the mold. Unsure if the bullets are annealed/softened by re-heating them for 20 minutes at 400F while powder coating them.

The mold I'm using is the Lee 255 Grain .452 standard 45 colt wad cutter mold (no gas check, LEE PRECISION 452-255-Rf). After powder coating I let them air cool, then lubrisize them to .452

From memory, the powders I have available are IMR 4227, H110, HS6, and 700X

So far I've tried both guns using 10gr of HS6 which gave good performance. The cowboy loads are ok, but I want to utilize the full capabilities of the cartridge and the full strength of the 94AE and the Ruger Redhawk.

Can you offer any advice about my project? Looking for a good load data source for loads that equal/safely surpass the 44 Mag.
In order to do this, would I need to start using gas checks? Perhaps the limiting factor will be the non-gas checked cast bullet?
In terms of action strength, how does the 94AE stand up when compared to the Redhawk or other lever actions? How does the Redhawk stand up to the Blackhawk in terms of strength? I've noticed in literature that the Blackhawk is often referenced as a strong action. I had a Blackhawk and do I ever miss it. Never sell your guns.

Thanks for your input.
 
OP,
The weak link in your quest will be the Win 94.

Load a dummy round to ascertain the max OAL that will feed in the 94 & then drop the aforementioned dummy round into the Ruger cylinder.

I would suggest a 300gr WFN-GC instead of the 255gr.

The IMR4227 powder choice will produce lower velocities than the H110 powder.

A chronograph will tell the tale.

Max pressure is MAXIMUM, whether shot in/thru a rifle/carbine or a hand gun.

After you have worked up a load, sacrifice a 1/2 dozen pieces of brass & cut the primer pockets to depth for a lge rifle primer to ascertain velocities verified w/ a chronograph shot thru each platform.

My 45Colt loads that I have for my Freedom Arms Model 83 will NEVER be shot thru my Marlin 1894 45Colt.
 
I am using Lil Gun for my full house loads in a 45colt Henry.
Shooting 250g Xtp @ 1650fps with 25.5g of lilgun out of a 16” barrel.

I pushed them up to 1850fps without issue. But those bullets aren’t meant to handle that kind impact velocity.

I have some 240g xtp mags on their way.

From your powder selection H110 is going to be your best bet.
4227 was slow and left a lot of Unburnt powder in the barrel.
It did clean up with hotter loads and a heavier crimp. But I walked away from it.
 
emerson said:
In a Mares leg I used 25gn H110 under a 250gn Campro.
Click to expand...

Very interesting.
I had horrible luck with the 250g campro with anything above 1000 fps
I though it was the Henry’s tighter twist chewing at the copper plating
I’d get flyers that would miss a 16”x16” target @ 50yrds

I now use unique @ 8.2g 900fps. Shoots 1.5” @50

But your load must be 1500fps at least.
 
I wouldnt class your water quenched pure lead slugs as "hard cast" , prob only in the 10-11 brinel range ( pure lead is 6-8 brinel range). Personally I wouldnt class anything under 18-20 brinel as a "hard cast" ...most commercial hard cast are up in the 23-26 range
The interesting part of your quest to me is what effect that Powder coating will have on those soft slugs. I have a home built Cabintree style lead hardness checker so, being home built I dont have a solid Brinel chart to compare , I only have a comparison meqasurement from pure lead to advertised brinel hardness of 25 and I can tell you that Powder coating for 20 minutes at 400 deg will reduce the temper of your water quenched slugs.
I have shot a lot of pure lead powder coated slugs in rifles but at a much reduced velocity than you are striving for, they worked wonderfully at under 1200 fps so really looking forward to your test results.
 
DANS40X said:
OP,
The weak link in your quest will be the Win 94.

Load a dummy round to ascertain the max OAL that will feed in the 94 & then drop the aforementioned dummy round into the Ruger cylinder.

I would suggest a 300gr WFN-GC instead of the 255gr.

The IMR4227 powder choice will produce lower velocities than the H110 powder.

A chronograph will tell the tale.

Max pressure is MAXIMUM, whether shot in/thru a rifle/carbine or a hand gun.

After you have worked up a load, sacrifice a 1/2 dozen pieces of brass & cut the primer pockets to depth for a lge rifle primer to ascertain velocities verified w/ a chronograph shot thru each platform.

My 45Colt loads that I have for my Freedom Arms Model 83 will NEVER be shot thru my Marlin 1894 45Colt.
Click to expand...

why would you consider a pistol / revolver action stronger that a 94 or marlin 1894 stronger?
 
Beater,
The Winny design came to be in the black powder days of yesteryear.
Tempering cheap materials did not strengthen the platform.

World of difference between the strength of a Win 94 & a Marlin 1894/95.

In a catastrophic event-
The Winny's breech bolt block spreads the receiver allowing the breech bolt to pass thru one's head.

The Marlin's barrel will split at the extractor cut, cracking the receiver at the ejection port.

The wheel gun will relieive pressure from the cylinder gap once fired, unless it blows out that cylinder bore & top strap.
 
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theshootist said:
Can you offer any advice about my project? Looking for a good load data source for loads that equal/safely surpass the 44 Mag.
Click to expand...

There is a dearth of 45 Colt loads that approximate 44 Magnum, so you could simply use published Max Loads for 44 Mag, and be at about 44 Mag Starting Load pressures (except for H110 which behaves poorly at lower pressures) . The pressure reduction is due to the greater case capacity and bore diameter of the 45 Colt. You'll need Gas Checked bullets at those pressures however, so with Plain Base bullets I'd stick to less than 20K psi or leading will become apparent.

It's up to you to determine if your rifles are suitable for that pressure. I have a Rossi M92 and it certainly is.
 
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I have a Chiappa 1892 45 colt that was reamed to 454 Casull length, those big locking lugs on there give me the confidence to shoot any +P recipe I've spotted out there. I use Lil Gun & H110, tend to use a magnum large pistol primer, though I do have some bricks of Winchester large pistol that say they're good for standard or magnum loads and they've also performed well.

I have bought campro 250 grain bullets and they tend to keyhole the paper on the hottest loads, so I stick with Hornady plated bullets for such loads
 
Ridersfan said:
I have a Chiappa 1892 45 colt that was reamed to 454 Casull length, those big locking lugs on there give me the confidence to shoot any +P recipe I've spotted out there. I use Lil Gun & H110, tend to use a magnum large pistol primer, though I do have some bricks of Winchester large pistol that say they're good for standard or magnum loads and they've also performed well.

I have bought campro 250 grain bullets and they tend to keyhole the paper on the hottest loads, so I stick with Hornady plated bullets for such loads
Click to expand...

What twist rate is in the chiappa ?
I’m my 1:16” Henry I have to keep those campro under 1000fps to stop them from going squirmy
 
There's been lots of great info that has been provided so far, I'll need some time to review it all. Thanks to all who chipped in.
I've got some research to do before I can respond to most of the replies.
To do this right I think I should look for some reputable literature to see what the 94WE and the Redhawk are rated for as far as pressure. Then make bullets of appropriate construction that can handle the pressure, and begin working up a load. I want to have a load that is functional for both guns.

One thing I've learned so far is that air cooling after PCing looses half the hardness! I'd like to make the bullets as soft as possible while still maintaining a +P load. Would be nice to also have bullets that can expand. I have a lot of experimenting ahead. One variable I'd prefer to keep constant (at least for now) is to use straight clip on wheel weights for alloy. Perhaps that's too hard, I'm not sure.

Here's a great video which is short and to the point with regards to how powder coating and water quenching effect bullet hardness:

 
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fingers284 said:
I wouldnt class your water quenched pure lead slugs as "hard cast" , prob only in the 10-11 brinel range ( pure lead is 6-8 brinel range). Personally I wouldnt class anything under 18-20 brinel as a "hard cast" ...most commercial hard cast are up in the 23-26 range
The interesting part of your quest to me is what effect that Powder coating will have on those soft slugs. I have a home built Cabintree style lead hardness checker so, being home built I dont have a solid Brinel chart to compare , I only have a comparison meqasurement from pure lead to advertised brinel hardness of 25 and I can tell you that Powder coating for 20 minutes at 400 deg will reduce the temper of your water quenched slugs.
I have shot a lot of pure lead powder coated slugs in rifles but at a much reduced velocity than you are striving for, they worked wonderfully at under 1200 fps so really looking forward to your test results.
Click to expand...

He wrote that he used "pure" clip on wheel weights and water quenched them, not pure lead. When I cast bullets from clip on wheel weights and water quench them, they come up as 21.8 bhn on my Lee lead hardness tester. I think this guy's bullets are harder than he thinks. I've shot lubed and sized non gas checked 265gr bullets of this alloy out of my 444 marlin at speeds just over 2000fps without leading the barrel, lubed with Dragon Bullet Lube's Yellow lube.
 
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There is no need for a gas check, that's one of the many benefits of powder coating. Your bullets will lose temper from the bake but water-quenched bullets revert back over time anyway. Size them properly and they will handle pressures well above what you will be loading to.
 
The m94 Winchester rifle will handle full power 44mag pressure specification loads.

SAAMI MAX for 44 rem mag = 36kpsi
SAAMI MAX for 30-30 wcf = 42kpsi

A firearm designed for 30-30 pressures will also safely handle 44 mag and 45colt +p.
 
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