Max 45LC loads for Ruger Redhawk and Win 94AE

[Andy]

The m94 Winchester rifle will handle full power 44mag pressure specification loads.

SAAMI MAX for 44 rem mag = 36kpsi
SAAMI MAX for 30-30 wcf = 42kpsi

A firearm designed for 30-30 pressures will also safely handle 44 mag and 45colt +p.

Pressure is one factor, but you can't assume that if a firearm can safely handle the pressure of one cartridge, that it can handle any cartridge at the same pressure. There are other considerations.

Maybe 44 Mag and 45 Colt are safe in this Win 94 (maybe), but not necessarily in all firearms chambered in smaller diameter rounds, as the bolt thrust of the 44 Mag/45 Colt is about 30% higher than the 30-30 at the same pressures. Another consideration is that the chamber for the 44 Mag/45 Colt is larger, hence has less "meat" than it does with the 30-30.

 

[Ridersfan]

What twist rate is in the chiappa ?
I’m my 1:16” Henry I have to keep those campro under 1000fps to stop them from going squirmy

Same 1 in 16, I had a Rossi that I traded on here that had a 1 in 30 or something like that... biggest gun mistake I've made was giving that up.

 

[B]

The m94 Winchester rifle will handle full power 44mag pressure specification loads.

SAAMI MAX for 44 rem mag = 36kpsi
SAAMI MAX for 30-30 wcf = 42kpsi

A firearm designed for 30-30 pressures will also safely handle 44 mag and 45colt +p.

There is more to it than that. I see Andy beat me to the explanation.

 

[jethunter]

Pressure is one factor, but you can't assume that if a firearm can safely handle the pressure of one cartridge, that it can handle any cartridge at the same pressure. There are other considerations.

Maybe 44 Mag and 45 Colt are safe in this Win 94 (maybe), but not necessarily in all firearms chambered in smaller diameter rounds, as the bolt thrust of the 44 Mag/45 Colt is about 30% higher than the 30-30 at the same pressures. Another consideration is that the chamber for the 44 Mag/45 Colt is larger, hence has less "meat" than it does with the 30-30.

There is more to it than that. I see Andy beat me to the explanation.

Yes there is more to it and in this case I calculate that the bolt thrust for both cartridges is nearly identical when both cartridges are loaded to SAAMI max pressure. Maybe I did it wrong, what did your calcs show?

 

[B]

I would need to know that pressure of the OPs load. If he shares what he intends to do I can run it through GRT for a good approximation.

 

[theshootist]

B, I appreciate any help you can give.
My intentions were to find some literature/reliable source for what pressures the 2 guns in question are designed to safely handle.
I'm after a single load that works well in both guns so the charge would be for the lower pressure of the 2.
With a max pressure in mind, I'd try to find a published/reliable source of info to verify what charge I would work up to attain that pressure. Never thought I could use 44Mag data.
I have pure clip on WW metal and straight lead to work with. I would try to go with the softest alloy that works reliably in both guns. I can powder coat and lube-size as well. The only constants I have at the moment are the 2 firearms, powders, and the 255gr bullet mold (no gas checks will be used). I'm away from home at the moment so haven't had a chance to do much research since starting this thread.

 

[jethunter]

I would need to know that pressure of the OPs load. If he shares what he intends to do I can run it through GRT for a good approximation.

I didn't know GRT calculated bolt thrust but i wouldn't trust GRT very far any way.
Use the saami max pressure for 30-30 and 44mag to calculate bolt thrust, that's close enough to be useful.

 

[B]

I didn't know GRT calculated bolt thrust but i wouldn't trust GRT very far any way.
Use the saami max pressure for 30-30 and 44mag to calculate bolt thrust, that's close enough to be useful.

You really didn't understand my comment about GRT it seems. The bolt thrust between a 14,000 PSI load and a 30-35,000 PSI load are not the same. Loading .45C and .30-30 equally simply must produce more thrust though, considering the significantly larger base of the .45.

My bad for wanting to give as proper of an answer as I could. If you did the math correctly using .44 Mag pressures then I guess it is likely ok. Seems Andy disagrees though.

 

[B]

I got a minute to do the math, even with the Colt right to 36,000 the bolt thrust is lower than with .30-30 loaded to 42,000. I am not sure how Andy came to his conclusion. Chamber thickness and whatever towards that part of the gun I can't say because I'm not willing to look for rifle drawings.

 

[jethunter]

You really didn't understand my comment about GRT it seems. The bolt thrust between a 14,000 PSI load and a 30-35,000 PSI load are not the same. Loading equally simply must produce more thrust though, considering the significantly larger base of the .45.

My bad for wanting to give as proper of an answer as I could. If you did the math correctly using .44 Mag pressures then I guess it is likely ok. Seems Andy disagrees though.

Not sure what you're talking about for most of that so I'll leave it alone.

30-30 cartridge has a smaller cross-sectional area at the base but operates at higher pressure than 44 mag. Consequently the actual bolt thrust is close to the same for both cartridges when they are using SAAMI max loads. Or at least that's what I calculated and since Andy and yourself seemed to be trying to correct me I was wondering if you had calculated something different. That's all there is.

 

[B]

Not sure what you're talking about for most of that so I'll leave it alone.

30-30 cartridge has a smaller cross-sectional area at the base but operates at higher pressure than 44 mag. Consequently the actual bolt thrust is close to the same for both cartridges when they are using SAAMI max loads. Or at least that's what I calculated and since Andy and yourself seemed to be trying to correct me I was wondering if you had calculated something different. That's all there is.

I said there was more to consider, he said the .45 had more bolt thrust. When I actually did the math after not getting the OPs intended load to run through GRT and get a decent guess as far as pressure, I just did the math with the same numbers we were all talking to see who my results matched. I got about 500psi less with the .45C. The thickness of the chamber walls still matters but I have no experience there. I have never had any interest in owning a '94.

 

[Andy]

Don't misquote me - please. This is all I said and nothing more.

Pressure is one factor, but you can't assume that if a firearm can safely handle the pressure of one cartridge, that it can handle any cartridge at the same pressure. There are other considerations.

Maybe 44 Mag and 45 Colt are safe in this Win 94 (maybe), but not necessarily in all firearms chambered in smaller diameter rounds, as the bolt thrust of the 44 Mag/45 Colt is about 30% higher than the 30-30 at the same pressures. Another consideration is that the chamber for the 44 Mag/45 Colt is larger, hence has less "meat" than it does with the 30-30.

 

[jethunter]

OK. Then I'll just say again that a M94 action rated for 30-30 pressures should also be capable of safely handling 44mag / 45colt +P.