Metal used in production of today's fireams question.

The evidence is all around you. The next time you're driving along notice the amount of relatively rust free 15-20 year old cars you notice.

Until the 1980's people typically bought a new car every 5 years, because after 8 years the car had rust holes you could put your fist through.

I worked in a steel mill from 1983 - 2007 and tolerances tightened and quality improved each and every year. The quality of modern steel can be far superior to pre-1980 steel.

Having said that, it does not mean manufacturers or manufacturing processes are taking advantage of the technological advances.

The next issue to deal with is Craftsmanship. Just because superior materials are available, there is no guarantee the Craftsman has improved or even kept pace.

I'm old enough to occasionally let out a "they don't make them like they used to" comment but it is usually followed quickly with a "thank Christ for that".

Cheers, Merry Christmas,
Scott
 
Erkel1 said:
Any steel or stainless that could be machined in a conventional mill or lathe can also be machined in a cnc machine.
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^^^ Correct. I don't believe the OP's hearsay to be true.

I will repeat something of interest that I read in the past though. When the Browning Hi Power was originally made for decades (from billet, I think), a relatively soft steel was used because extensive machining was needed. In later production, forgings or castings (not sure which) were used that were close to the final form. That allowed using tougher steel because much less machining was needed.
 
76tr6 said:
I'm old enough to occasionally let out a "they don't make them like they used to" comment but it is usually followed quickly with a "thank Christ for that".

Cheers, Merry Christmas,
Scott
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Yep. It's well worth remembering, that he reason there were Gunsmiths everywhere, was mostly because the build quality of a Factory rifle was, in a word, crap.

Getting a rifle that would group an inch at 100 yards was pretty darn close to a lottery win, luck wise. The factories then, like now, were run by guys with an eye on the bottom line, and they generally didn't spend a bunch of time or money on the product, that wasn't absolutely required to get it past whatever warranty period was offered. Sometimes it all came together, but it certainly was not expected all the time.

20 to 35 thousand miles was pretty much the expected life of a car engine too.
 
trevj said:
Learn a little about metallurgy and machining, and you will rapidly find that the folks that shared the wisdom in the OP, know pretty much nothing about that which they spoke so authoritatively.

Which is to say, you have been getting your information from one or more idiots.
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So true. Jerry Miculek sets this fallacy right in many of his YouTube videos. I trust Jerry's experience over anyone's.
 
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trevj said:
Yep. It's well worth remembering, that he reason there were Gunsmiths everywhere, was mostly because the build quality of a Factory rifle was, in a word, crap.

Getting a rifle that would group an inch at 100 yards was pretty darn close to a lottery win, luck wise. The factories then, like now, were run by guys with an eye on the bottom line, and they generally didn't spend a bunch of time or money on the product, that wasn't absolutely required to get it past whatever warranty period was offered. Sometimes it all came together, but it certainly was not expected all the time.

20 to 35 thousand miles was pretty much the expected life of a car engine too.
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I strong disagree with the above.

There were gunsmiths everywhere because that was pre the lefts attack on shooting and the hobby in general. Shooting has been on the decline for years and thus theres less Smith's around.

Modern rifles have stronger actions and are more accurate but that's it. I'll take fine walnut with hand cut checking over plastic crap with stamped checkering any day..

In the 50s and 60s powder/ bullets and primers were no where near where they were today and thus groups were a lot larger.

Also button rifling is a thing now verse cut rifling like the old days. That effects accuracy a lot for sure.

Also machine tools often will hold tolerances taht they could only dream of 50 years ago.

Saying they were inaccurate because they were run by penny pinchers is so ridiculous. That's not how things were done in the old days. No quality meant you went bankrupt. Now it's not enough money for your shareholders and they shut you down.
 
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bluelynx said:
I have been told that the metal required to produce today's firearms using the CNC process requires a softer block of steel. This softer block of steel is supposedly inferior to the old style of machining in the yesteryears. The result is that you create an inferior product.

Is the above statement true, or is this just another gun shop B.S. statement that is being sold to customers all over the world in magazines and other media?

I am sure we can dig up one or two experts on current steel production and processing that could direct myself and my fellow CGN members in the correct direction.

Help.
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I would say the opposite is true. Todays metallurgy is still advancing. We have stronger, longer lasting alloys that resist heat and abrasion much better than even 20 years ago.

One only has to look at Carbide insert tooling to understand this to be true. Regular HSS tooling used to cut everything we made... with todays more abrasion resistant steels, the propagation of Titanium and the M series and R series of steels, Carbide has become a deFacto necessity.

Not an expert by any stretch, but have some lathe time and mill time, and friends that work in aerospace industry who would agree that todays steel is of better alloy with less impurities, and far better consistency.
 
bluelynx said:
I have been told that the metal required to produce today's firearms using the CNC process requires a softer block of steel. This softer block of steel is supposedly inferior to the old style of machining in the yesteryears. The result is that you create an inferior product.

Is the above statement true, or is this just another gun shop B.S. statement that is being sold to customers all over the world in magazines and other media?

I am sure we can dig up one or two experts on current steel production and processing that could direct myself and my fellow CGN members in the correct direction.

Help.
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Survivor syndrome ?

Either the good "old" guns you find now survived so far because they were the best (and the rest didn't survive), or for the Mosin / cheap SKS, they have pretty much been sitting in a warehouse for the past 60 years (if not more).

That being said, I doubt you could get any WK-180 equivalent for USD$250 in 1980...
 
As the tech put into manufacturing has advanced at a pace, so has the metal manufacturing. Failure analysis of the steel, sem, even accurate alloy specimen analysis... for example i can buy an alloy and have an exact spec sheet included for that melt ( which i can then alter the heat treat regime to suit that batch). And reject the lot if theres some tramp elements that would confound the final product.
So that would have been alot more difficult the further back you go
.. however, i do agree there was great craftsmanship in the past
Tinman204 said:
I strong disagree with the above.

There were gunsmiths everywhere because that was pre the lefts attack on shooting and the hobby in general. Shooting has been on the decline for years and thus theres less Smith's around.

Modern rifles have stronger actions and are more accurate but that's it. I'll take fine walnut with hand cut checking over plastic crap with stamped checkering any day..

In the 50s and 60s powder/ bullets and primers were no where near where they were today and thus groups were a lot larger.

Also button rifling is a thing now verse cut rifling like the old days. That effects accuracy a lot for sure.

Also machine tools often will hold tolerances taht they could only dream of 50 years ago.

Saying they were inaccurate because they were run by penny pinchers is so ridiculous. That's not how things were done in the old days. No quality meant you went bankrupt. Now it's not enough money for your shareholders and they shut you down.
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Got Juice? said:
I would say the opposite is true. Todays metallurgy is still advancing. We have stronger, longer lasting alloys that resist heat and abrasion much better than even 20 years ago.

One only has to look at Carbide insert tooling to understand this to be true. Regular HSS tooling used to cut everything we made... with todays more abrasion resistant steels, the propagation of Titanium and the M series and R series of steels, Carbide has become a deFacto necessity.

Not an expert by any stretch, but have some lathe time and mill time, and friends that work in aerospace industry who would agree that todays steel is of better alloy with less impurities, and far better consistency.
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Praise the Lord for reasonably priced Carbide, another dramatic metallurgy advance. :) We used to have our saw blades sharpened daily when I first got into construction, now they last months and are cheap enough not to bother sharpening.

Grizz
 
Good example of positive metallurgy and machining advances: S&W L-framed .44 magnum mdl 69

Same .44 mag in a 70's N-frame (bigger frame) had a lot of issues.

For the same reasons we can successfully, safely and repeatedly shoot .460, .500 from revolvers.

Also, the worlds fastest shooter can pick up any modern revolver and have expectations of consistency. He will tell you that "back in the 70's", it was luck of the draw in getting an accurate pistol because of machining inconsistencies. (Jerry M)

I own some nice modern guns. I paid-up for them, and I can tell you they don't have quality control issues. But I can understand that others experiences with other manufacturers may be different. And, I realize some companies won't make use of the advanced equipment and materials available to them. I'm sure many "cheap out" for the sake of profit, but don't ever confuse that corporate problem with obvious advancements in technology, and the superior products we end up with if utilized.
 
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Tinman204 said:
I strong disagree with the above.

There were gunsmiths everywhere because that was pre the lefts attack on shooting and the hobby in general. Shooting has been on the decline for years and thus theres less Smith's around.

Modern rifles have stronger actions and are more accurate but that's it. I'll take fine walnut with hand cut checking over plastic crap with stamped checkering any day..

In the 50s and 60s powder/ bullets and primers were no where near where they were today and thus groups were a lot larger.

Also button rifling is a thing now verse cut rifling like the old days. That effects accuracy a lot for sure.

Also machine tools often will hold tolerances taht they could only dream of 50 years ago.

Saying they were inaccurate because they were run by penny pinchers is so ridiculous. That's not how things were done in the old days. No quality meant you went bankrupt. Now it's not enough money for your shareholders and they shut you down.
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Sadly, to burst your rose coloured glasses bubble, that was exactly how it was done. Winchester made their parts in machine shops full of workers who never saw a measuring tool, each operation was set up on the machine using a master part, and the subsequent parts made, were compared directly to those master parts to determine whether they were fit for use. A tolerance of plus or minus five thousandths of an inch was considered quite good.

Button rifling has sped up production, but cut rifling is still used and sought out by shooters too. Can't lay anything at the feet of HOW it was rifled.

Shooters were shooting small groups, and have been for centuries. Just not with factory barrels. Looking at the history of folks like Harry Pope and his contemporaries, and you will see that competitive shooting really was a big thing, and the groups were nothing to sniff over. So much for that line of reasoning. That was going on at the turn of the century. Blaming poor factory products of the fifties and sixties on that they could not do better isn't going to wash.

Modern makers have access to better steel alloys, better process control for heat treatment, and more accurate machinery able to make a more consistent part. Somewhat soulless, but accurate and consistent.
People whinge and moan if their new rifle shoots an inch group with factory ammo, when guys used to think they were on to something really great if they got that with hand loads and not much else.
Over all, I see the decline in the numbers as related to the decline in the need. Same thing happened to the corner gas station with a mechanic. There simply was not the call for as much of their services. Guns and cars both, in a general way, have gotten to be well enough made that we expect them to work out of the box, and keep working well, for a very long time. The selection of shapes and styles to choose from is great enough now that most folks are able to find what they want without having to pay someone to change it to what they need, or want.

The end result as I see it, has been an overall decline in demand, which naturally enough, meant that there became far fewer gunsmiths able to make a living at it. The few that did, were those with the skills to provide something that was not otherwise available, or the business acumen to get in to other retail sidelines to support themselves when there was not a demand for their services.
In other terms, they joined the buggy whip makers, not as needed as they once were.
 
trevj said:
Learn a little about metallurgy and machining, and you will rapidly find that the folks that shared the wisdom in the OP, know pretty much nothing about that which they spoke so authoritatively.

Which is to say, you have been getting your information from one or more idiots.
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100 % support your reply base on 40 plus years of machining , and cnc is more productive and can be more accurate and many ways
 
As a mechanical engineer who has been around for a while, I've come to understand the concept of "maturation" in product manufacturing. An engineered product goes through phases, staring with true development - for firearms this was the advancement of steel quality/strength and action types such as the repeating bolt action in the late 1800's. Then comes the refinement stage where manufacturers compete by introducing higher levels of quality and sophistication, which beneficially increases pricing. The final stage applies to a mature product, where the objective is to offer the same functionality but by simplifying the design and reducing manufacturing costs. I think its fair to say that firearms have hit the mature stage, just like disc brakes and downhill skiis. Consider injection molded stocks, investment cast receivers, polymer or plastic trigger guards and magazines, high tolerance N/C machining which eliminates hand fitting, coated metal finishes, etc. As far as metal is concerned, the maturation process had led to the use of less metal that can accept higher stresses (thanks to finite element stress analysis), and the use of common mill stock such as round bar for receivers rather than custom forgings. The quality of the metal is strictly "fit for purpose", and the steel mills are able to respond to this spec via mill test reports, etc.
If you really want to see the maturation process in play, compare a Remington model 14, to a post WW2 Mauser sporting rifle such as a Brno or a FN, to a Savage Axis or Tikka T3. (I'm not slagging Tikkas, I own several - but those boys sure know how to produce a rifle with a minimum production effort)
 
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For the most part I can't say metal has gotten any better. Everybody can mix the ingredient but not everyone's cookies will look and taste the same in the end. I don't hardly trust any of them and pay real good attention to finding problems.

A lot of mills are now in 3rd world countries and the ones who aren't are operating by whatever means it takes to try to compete with the 3rd world... I scrap a few thousand dollars of parts every year due to material flaws in mostly 316 Stainless(90% of what I work with). Have it be US, India, Italy, China, whatever origin, though some are worse than others. I'd be happy to see Chinese pipe of any kind be flat out banned from import.

About 20ish years ago some welding procedures got changed as failure rates were going up due to lower material quality problems.
Mills falsifying certs was no surprise to me.

That said, my cnc's will chew anything but it's annoying how much material still varies from batch to batch.
 
SND said:
For the most part I can't say metal has gotten any better. Everybody can mix the ingredient but not everyone's cookies will look and taste the same in the end. I don't hardly trust any of them and pay real good attention to finding problems.

A lot of mills are now in 3rd world countries and the ones who aren't are operating by whatever means it takes to try to compete with the 3rd world... I scrap a few thousand dollars of parts every year due to material flaws in mostly 316 Stainless(90% of what I work with). Have it be US, India, Italy, China, whatever origin, though some are worse than others. I'd be happy to see Chinese pipe of any kind be flat out banned from import.

About 20ish years ago some welding procedures got changed as failure rates were going up due to lower material quality problems.
Mills falsifying certs was no surprise to me.

That said, my cnc's will chew anything but it's annoying how much material still varies from batch to batch.
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Yeah, material variations can be a pain.
But we live in truly bountiful times, when it comes to choices available, both in alloys and materials.

Ever find 'interesting' junk in the bar? I chiselled a half of a carbide insert out of a bar of 6061. It was in about an inch, in a 4 inch round bar.
Other than that our biggest PITA in the shop was finding out that all the bronze bar we had, had longitudinal splits in it, artifact of the rolling mill that made it not being on their game. Not much good for the bushings it was bought for, and way to late in the game to make any hay with the supplier over either.
 
Well - Large companies that use a lot of steel, such as boiler manufacturers, or firearm manufacturers, have their own material testing facilities , or use a third party that does. Testing is done at the mill, such that inferior product never gets shipped. In addition, material for critical components is subject to in-house NDT such as radiography or liquid penetrant.
They have to do this, giving the liability of product failure in their business. I can see how the smaller purchasers get the shaft under these circumstances.
 
Inferior products get shipped from mills all day every day, once its melted and rolled its going to someone somewhere. Its on us to try to deal with it good or bad.
 
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