Mid-range Prone Shoot for ARs at Connaught - ENTRY FORM ON POST 59
- Thread starter FTRRookie
- Start date
Just curious why it needs to be a "military type" semi-auto loader?
Surely there are other semi-autos that could shoot a sudo-f class match?
I also find it curious why f-classers would want to run a separate match with a course of fire based on f-class?
Why not adopt another class within the f-class sport and have guys with gas guns shoot with you guys all the time?
Surely there are other semi-autos that could shoot a sudo-f class match?
I also find it curious why f-classers would want to run a separate match with a course of fire based on f-class?
Why not adopt another class within the f-class sport and have guys with gas guns shoot with you guys all the time?
We didn't make the rules, we're just parroting what is happening in the US and looking for input on how to make it work best up here. In my opinion opening it up to rifles other than ARs would be a good start. My guess is that with a few exceptions semi-autos chambered in military calibers are going to be pretty limited outside of "military type" rifles. And of those few hunting semis I would expect that most would have an issue with the volume of fire based solely on barrel contour.
Because we thought it would be fun, but based on the tone of many of the responses I'm starting to wonder whether we should even bother! We're not trying to create some new form of F-Class here, we just thought this might be something different for guys with gas guns to try, and see how their rifles and ammunition would do under different conditions.
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Sounds fun and like it is a good idea. I am 1000km away so I won't be attending but if I were local I would consider not shooting my regular rifle that day and shooting my AR instead. There's an excellent chance that you'll put this on and few if any people will show up, but then again that's the risk of trying something new. I think it should be tried.
300-500-600 are good ranges. For an AR they are impressively "long" ranges, and it really is quite rewarding to shoot a bone-stock AR at 600 and be able to hit your target most of the time. Even 300 is quite a bit beyond the usual distances that most people shoot ARs, and it is good for people to see how well an AR can shoot at that distance.
My AR (a Colt Sporter) is an honest 2.75MOA rifle. Using the TR-sized rings (2 MOA 5-ring) is definitely the way to go, don't use the F-Class rings.
You might consider bending the US-NRA rule a bit and permitting the resting of the magazine on the ground, as recognition of it being a local Canadian service rifle manner of shooting.
EDIT TO ADD: you can run it at 300 and 500m on e-targets, but I would suggest that you don't try doing 600m on e-targets because 55 grain FMJBTs are usually subsonic at 600m. Hmmm one should also check if an M4 with 55s is supersonic at 500m or not. Anyhow, it might be fun to do at least a little of this match on e-targets...
300-500-600 are good ranges. For an AR they are impressively "long" ranges, and it really is quite rewarding to shoot a bone-stock AR at 600 and be able to hit your target most of the time. Even 300 is quite a bit beyond the usual distances that most people shoot ARs, and it is good for people to see how well an AR can shoot at that distance.
My AR (a Colt Sporter) is an honest 2.75MOA rifle. Using the TR-sized rings (2 MOA 5-ring) is definitely the way to go, don't use the F-Class rings.
You might consider bending the US-NRA rule a bit and permitting the resting of the magazine on the ground, as recognition of it being a local Canadian service rifle manner of shooting.
EDIT TO ADD: you can run it at 300 and 500m on e-targets, but I would suggest that you don't try doing 600m on e-targets because 55 grain FMJBTs are usually subsonic at 600m. Hmmm one should also check if an M4 with 55s is supersonic at 500m or not. Anyhow, it might be fun to do at least a little of this match on e-targets...
The thing is it isn't new, it's a repackaging of an old discipline that newer generations have little interest in shooting. The NRA is trying desperately to regain interest in their matches, but younger shooters aren't interested in shooting that when they can shoot 3-gun, which also goes out to 500 yards or more over there.
This is new, this is what people want to shoot:
https://www.facebook.com/michael.ca...0205818786250390.1073741867.1279334282&type=3
Granted, you can't do exactly this on a square range, but you can do things to try and make a match more interesting. The BCRA has things like barricades and mock rooftops that they use in some of their matches on military ranges. This is doing something new.
This is new, this is what people want to shoot:
https://www.facebook.com/michael.ca...0205818786250390.1073741867.1279334282&type=3
Granted, you can't do exactly this on a square range, but you can do things to try and make a match more interesting. The BCRA has things like barricades and mock rooftops that they use in some of their matches on military ranges. This is doing something new.
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Mauser GDog
CGN frequent flyer
Kudos for trying something new, but as a one-off match I'm not sure who it's designed for.
This is my honest, and hopefully constructive feedback.
(*edit*sorry, kombayotch kinda beat me to it while I was picking away at my post...but I'm leaving my redundant feedback here )
If I shoot SR but not PR, it gives me the opportunity to shoot my AR 15 at 600m for the first time, but I have no experience at 600m and no access to a 600m range to practice. My 2x sighters might hit paper, but if they don't I've committed a weekend to taking a poke at 600m, (which I suppose would be worth while) and practiced my 300-500m. God knows I could use that practice!
If you shoot PR but not SR, it gives you a chance to shoot your AR 15 on a range you usually shoot your PR rig, which would be fun, but I'd wager those people would also enjoy dedicating that extra weekend to trying a full SR match.
Is there another type of match such as a DMR match (as Klatham mentioned) that would clearly define itself as something new and attract more shooters?
Could this morph into a higher tempo, DMR style match that draws on the positional shooting and running from SR and the longer range shooting of PR?
I'd be eager to commit a weekend to a new match where I know I might miss some targets altogether, if it offered something totally new.
This is my honest, and hopefully constructive feedback.
(*edit*sorry, kombayotch kinda beat me to it while I was picking away at my post...but I'm leaving my redundant feedback here )If I shoot SR but not PR, it gives me the opportunity to shoot my AR 15 at 600m for the first time, but I have no experience at 600m and no access to a 600m range to practice. My 2x sighters might hit paper, but if they don't I've committed a weekend to taking a poke at 600m, (which I suppose would be worth while) and practiced my 300-500m. God knows I could use that practice!
If you shoot PR but not SR, it gives you a chance to shoot your AR 15 on a range you usually shoot your PR rig, which would be fun, but I'd wager those people would also enjoy dedicating that extra weekend to trying a full SR match.
Is there another type of match such as a DMR match (as Klatham mentioned) that would clearly define itself as something new and attract more shooters?
Could this morph into a higher tempo, DMR style match that draws on the positional shooting and running from SR and the longer range shooting of PR?
I'd be eager to commit a weekend to a new match where I know I might miss some targets altogether, if it offered something totally new.
SR matches, as engaging as they are, are already poorly attended. This COF is less engaging still as far as what can be done with an SR class rifle. Adding another date to the schedule, in my mind, will likely water down attendance at the other events. It's nice to know people are thinking of the SR shooters, but to me this smells a bit of trying to get people to peek in the door to F-Class etc., rather than bringing anything new to SR. I may be bent away from this stuff as I can still jump up and run, but I think even our members who are aging or injured still enjoy shooting from multiple positions, and at a variety of targets, including movers.
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Conceptually, this new NRA Mid-Range (Prone) Tactical Rifle (AR) program is designed to provide civilian, military, and police shooters with an opportunity to shoot NRA Mid-Range Prone competition along side of other Mid-Range Prone shooters in matches using semi-automatic rifles built on an “AR Platform” and equipment generally thought of as being “tactical” in design and use. These rifles will be configured so as to replicate as closely as possible the tactical rifles (semi-automatic) and equipment used by the Canadian Military and Canadian Law Enforcement Community in “mid-range” tactical applications.
These semi-automatic rifles will be more “off the rack” or “stock” than “competition” in nature. They will be more of a “tactical design” than “match design” and therefore less expensive than the vast majority of mid-range prone rifles currently in use.
Equipment
b. Sights – Telescopic sights, either fixed or variable, not to exceed 12x magnification. Standard metallic, holographic and other tactical sighting systems are also permitted. Laser sighting systems are prohibited.
c. Tactical Front Rest – detachable and collapsible (folding) tactical-style front bipod of the“Harris- type”; or, separate soft roll or soft front bag of the type and design commonly used in military/police “field-expedient applications” are permitted.
g. Magazine – Standard 20 round or 30 round magazines must be used (pinned to 5 rounds for civilians). “sleds” are prohibited. Magazine may not be used for support and may not touch the ground during firing or recoil.
k. Interpretive Intent – It is the intent of this rule that this semi-automatic rifle and the equipment used therewith most closely resemble the semi-automatic tactical rifles and equipment issued to and sometimes used by Canadian Military and Law Enforcement in tactical situations at the distances utilized in standard Mid-Range Prone Competition. This is not meant to be another form of F-Class competition. Rifles and equipment designed specifically for competitive shooting applications are generally outside the spirit and intent.
Divisions: Military/Law Enforcement: Must be an active member in the Canadian military or Police Services. Must use issued rifle, equipment and ammunition. May move into the "Open" division as long as it is noted by the secretary BEFORE the commencement of the match.
Military and police don’t use 14 lb AR with bi-pods and 12x scopes.
Open: Anybody who is not in the Military/Law Enforcement
Making all civilian entries automatically in Open Class means that competitors who want the best chance to win will come with heavy match barrels, max magnification scopes (12x) and weights in their rifles to achieve the max 14lbs. The participants with truly rack grade rifles will be an equipment disadvantage from the get go.
This new style of competition is designed to be more “tactical” in spirit and for that reason equipment normally found in other types of High Power Rifle Competition such Target Rifle and F-Class Rifle are not permitted. In order to understand the spirit of this new sport one might think of this sport as “prone Service Rifle with a bipod and a scope”. This IS NOT designed as another version of F-Class competition.
The difference between this and F-class is so minimal as to not even bother trying to make a distinction. Just call it what it is, as semi-automatic rifle division for F-class.
(There is nothing inherently wrong with that by the way)
Get rid of the pretense of this being for rack grade rifles. The rifles specified as being allowed are not rack grade.
Better I think to put in specifications on “military” class rifles that actually conforms to what is issued to CF and Police with equivalent:
barrel length & diameter
max magnification 4x (say)
no bi-pods or front bags, allow only sling or mag support
and allow ANY competitor with a rifle and sighting system that meets the specifications in a sub-class that actually conforms to this rules.
Let the heavy barreled, tricked out “space guns” compete in Open class on their own with bi-pods, bags, higher magnification, higher weight. Heck, even allow other chamberings that conform to the range template.
These semi-automatic rifles will be more “off the rack” or “stock” than “competition” in nature. They will be more of a “tactical design” than “match design” and therefore less expensive than the vast majority of mid-range prone rifles currently in use.
Equipment
b. Sights – Telescopic sights, either fixed or variable, not to exceed 12x magnification. Standard metallic, holographic and other tactical sighting systems are also permitted. Laser sighting systems are prohibited.
c. Tactical Front Rest – detachable and collapsible (folding) tactical-style front bipod of the“Harris- type”; or, separate soft roll or soft front bag of the type and design commonly used in military/police “field-expedient applications” are permitted.
g. Magazine – Standard 20 round or 30 round magazines must be used (pinned to 5 rounds for civilians). “sleds” are prohibited. Magazine may not be used for support and may not touch the ground during firing or recoil.
k. Interpretive Intent – It is the intent of this rule that this semi-automatic rifle and the equipment used therewith most closely resemble the semi-automatic tactical rifles and equipment issued to and sometimes used by Canadian Military and Law Enforcement in tactical situations at the distances utilized in standard Mid-Range Prone Competition. This is not meant to be another form of F-Class competition. Rifles and equipment designed specifically for competitive shooting applications are generally outside the spirit and intent.
Divisions: Military/Law Enforcement: Must be an active member in the Canadian military or Police Services. Must use issued rifle, equipment and ammunition. May move into the "Open" division as long as it is noted by the secretary BEFORE the commencement of the match.
Military and police don’t use 14 lb AR with bi-pods and 12x scopes.
Open: Anybody who is not in the Military/Law Enforcement
Making all civilian entries automatically in Open Class means that competitors who want the best chance to win will come with heavy match barrels, max magnification scopes (12x) and weights in their rifles to achieve the max 14lbs. The participants with truly rack grade rifles will be an equipment disadvantage from the get go.
This new style of competition is designed to be more “tactical” in spirit and for that reason equipment normally found in other types of High Power Rifle Competition such Target Rifle and F-Class Rifle are not permitted. In order to understand the spirit of this new sport one might think of this sport as “prone Service Rifle with a bipod and a scope”. This IS NOT designed as another version of F-Class competition.
The difference between this and F-class is so minimal as to not even bother trying to make a distinction. Just call it what it is, as semi-automatic rifle division for F-class.
(There is nothing inherently wrong with that by the way)
Get rid of the pretense of this being for rack grade rifles. The rifles specified as being allowed are not rack grade.
Better I think to put in specifications on “military” class rifles that actually conforms to what is issued to CF and Police with equivalent:
barrel length & diameter
max magnification 4x (say)
no bi-pods or front bags, allow only sling or mag support
and allow ANY competitor with a rifle and sighting system that meets the specifications in a sub-class that actually conforms to this rules.
Let the heavy barreled, tricked out “space guns” compete in Open class on their own with bi-pods, bags, higher magnification, higher weight. Heck, even allow other chamberings that conform to the range template.
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Okay, I'm confused. If this is not a warm up for NSCC why would it be good for people to shoot before NSCC?
Man, you guys really know how to suck the fun out of something!! And I thought the TR guys were bad... 
I get that this might not be the exciting PRS style of shooting that people are starting to gravitate towards, but it's what Barry and I are able to do with the time we have, and the range facilities and targets available to us through NCRRA. If someone wants to take the time to do something more elaborate then I highly encourage you to do so.
Some of the feedback we have received from people here and outside of CGN has been quite helpful, and I'm glad that some of you got what we were trying to do. It's a shame there was so much negativity as it really takes the wind out of the sails of volunteers who are just trying to come up with an opportunity for people to get out and try something different. And for what?
If we decide to go ahead with it we'll let you know here, or on the NCRRA website.
Scott
I get that this might not be the exciting PRS style of shooting that people are starting to gravitate towards, but it's what Barry and I are able to do with the time we have, and the range facilities and targets available to us through NCRRA. If someone wants to take the time to do something more elaborate then I highly encourage you to do so.
Some of the feedback we have received from people here and outside of CGN has been quite helpful, and I'm glad that some of you got what we were trying to do. It's a shame there was so much negativity as it really takes the wind out of the sails of volunteers who are just trying to come up with an opportunity for people to get out and try something different. And for what?
If we decide to go ahead with it we'll let you know here, or on the NCRRA website.
Scott
I'd be happy to participate. Some people won't attend an event they don't think they can win and so get wrapped up in the "fairness" of it. What I've learned from running events is to just run it, and let the critics run their own events, though they never do.
Man, you guys really know how to suck the fun out of something!! And I thought the TR guys were bad...
I get that this might not be the exciting PRS style of shooting that people are starting to gravitate towards, but it's what Barry and I are able to do with the time we have, and the range facilities and targets available to us through NCRRA. If someone wants to take the time to do something more elaborate then I highly encourage you to do so.
Some of the feedback we have received from people here and outside of CGN has been quite helpful, and I'm glad that some of you got what we were trying to do. It's a shame there was so much negativity as it really takes the wind out of the sails of volunteers who are just trying to come up with an opportunity for people to get out and try something different. And for what?
If we decide to go ahead with it we'll let you know here, or on the NCRRA website.
Scott
Try not to take it all as negativity. Take much of what has been said as honest feedback from some folks who are the wiley veterans of SR, as well as some up and comers. They are bringing up some of the issues that service conditions event organizers are currently dealing with (such as rifle classification, for example.) By all means, run the event. By all means, ask for help. Just be prepared for some feedback that might surprise you. The SR matches have had all kinds of issues dictated to us for some time by various organizations (PRAs, DCRA et al.), and not everyone is keen to be told what else we need to be doing. If this event were in my area, I would put it very low on my list of things to do. Not because it's a terrible plan, but because it offers little in terms of relevant training for the SR matches that I try to get to each year.
Sherlock Gnomes
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- St.Catharines
I am all for it as is. Let us know I would love to attend
I'd shoot it just to work on wind and so would a few diehards that truly want to better their game. But the unfortunate reality these days is it has to be "exciting". People want movers, volume of fire and pop up targets so that they can just bang away, have fun and not necessarily learn anything. The two things I would use this for in relation to warming up for NSCC would be again wind and to get my zeros. Would I pay match fees to do it? Maybe.
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Talked it over with Barry and we're going to go ahead with this event. Still need to work the logistics out with the NCRRA, but that should be fairly straightforward. We'll post match info and registration once that's all sorted. We're planning to run it in June.
This sounds fantastic to me. I am a F-Class and IPSC competitor, and planning on shooting SR this year. ( I have no SR experience).
That said, being a well rounded shooter means being able to shoot multiple platforms under multiple conditions.
This proposed match is unique in that it is not F-Class. Nor is it SR from what I can tell. I contains elements of both.
This competition, is Semi-Auto 5.56 at mid-range with a non F-class bipod, and no rear bag. ( personally, I would suggest allowing people to shoot off the mag if no bipod). I don't care which target we shoot at...it is after all just the target. Using what we have just make sense.
I think it is an exciting opportunity, it sounds broadly accessable, many people have an AR platform and Harris style bipod. Shooting a 5.56 at these ranges off a Harris style bipod, is a great way to further round out our skills, not represented is SR or F-Class. I have no doubt, other platforms, calibers will need to be considered, but each will bring new challenges to keeping the field even.
I would recommend that we consider two classes. (not open and LE/military) but production and Open.
Open limits as written. ( still unsure about the 14 lb wieght)
Production - meaning out of the box, stock platform with optics ( limit on optics could be common LE/Military issue)
If my schedule allows, I will enthusiastically attend.
That said, being a well rounded shooter means being able to shoot multiple platforms under multiple conditions.
This proposed match is unique in that it is not F-Class. Nor is it SR from what I can tell. I contains elements of both.
This competition, is Semi-Auto 5.56 at mid-range with a non F-class bipod, and no rear bag. ( personally, I would suggest allowing people to shoot off the mag if no bipod). I don't care which target we shoot at...it is after all just the target. Using what we have just make sense.
I think it is an exciting opportunity, it sounds broadly accessable, many people have an AR platform and Harris style bipod. Shooting a 5.56 at these ranges off a Harris style bipod, is a great way to further round out our skills, not represented is SR or F-Class. I have no doubt, other platforms, calibers will need to be considered, but each will bring new challenges to keeping the field even.
I would recommend that we consider two classes. (not open and LE/military) but production and Open.
Open limits as written. ( still unsure about the 14 lb wieght)
Production - meaning out of the box, stock platform with optics ( limit on optics could be common LE/Military issue)
If my schedule allows, I will enthusiastically attend.
I have been shooting service rifle since 1991. I welcome ANY shooting at Connaught, especially if it's something NEW and potentially quite FUN. The old matches 1-12 were extremely boring. Sure I learned a lot, but if I wasn't being paid to shoot them I doubt I would have at that age.
Are some of you not forgetting the #1 thing that got us into shooting, or any sport or hobby for that matter - the FUN FACTOR?
Good on the NCRRA for thinking of something like this. I completely disagree with every critique here. ALL SHOOTING is good practice, whether it's the exact same matches or not. Who cares anyways? I shoot the milsurps matches that Andy organizes at EOSC and there is minimal marksmanship learning but they are FUN, it's a good time, and at the last one in January (it was quite cold btw) they got more people coming out then the last SR match in Ottawa.
Seriously, every person willing to come forward to organize a match involving an AR should be given a round of applause, and supported. It's a great idea. I am 100% IN. I don't care what the rules are or what the target is. Maybe it sucks, likely it doesn't. Either way we don't know until we try. My only advice is make it accessible to as many people as possible - any service type rifle.
And I really LOVE the idea of going to 600m. That's AWESOME.
Are some of you not forgetting the #1 thing that got us into shooting, or any sport or hobby for that matter - the FUN FACTOR?
Good on the NCRRA for thinking of something like this. I completely disagree with every critique here. ALL SHOOTING is good practice, whether it's the exact same matches or not. Who cares anyways? I shoot the milsurps matches that Andy organizes at EOSC and there is minimal marksmanship learning but they are FUN, it's a good time, and at the last one in January (it was quite cold btw) they got more people coming out then the last SR match in Ottawa.
Seriously, every person willing to come forward to organize a match involving an AR should be given a round of applause, and supported. It's a great idea. I am 100% IN. I don't care what the rules are or what the target is. Maybe it sucks, likely it doesn't. Either way we don't know until we try. My only advice is make it accessible to as many people as possible - any service type rifle.
And I really LOVE the idea of going to 600m. That's AWESOME.
