Mid-range Prone Shoot for ARs at Connaught - ENTRY FORM ON POST 59

The problem with half measures is that they make no one happy. I have been giving this some thought and think the NRA and CMP are missing the mark.

A prone MSR (Modern Sporting Rifle) shoot/COF does sound like a good idea because positional shooting is much hated by those with bad knees, and those who don't like shooting or can't shoot from positions other than prone (I have had people refuse to come out to anything unless we install benches). The secret will be running deliberate shoots so people can sort themselves out then some snaps and movers which are things people can't do on non gallery ranges. You could pair shooters so they alternate shots on the deliberates and matches for the other two which would allow for better mentoring than the "on your own and go" of SR.
I would not drive anywhere to shoot 45 rounds in a day (I would be hard pressed to find a friend who would) but would consider a minimum 3 10round matches at each the 300, 500 and 600 mounds for 90 rounds.

As for gear, ARs are lego for men. I don't own a "factory" AR and have a few. I would recommend building a simple box (but I say this for Service Rifle as well). Make a service class with must be mag fed semi, an optic limit of 4X, 20" barrel a max weight and include but limit to very common military calibers.

Open could be must be mag fed semi...............................

Allow shooting off bipods and rear bags for both, but don't allow shooting off rucks, sleds, front bags and other forms that will push creativity but allow off the mags as taught by most countries militaries.
 
sledge said:
I have been shooting service rifle since 1991. I welcome ANY shooting at Connaught, especially if it's something NEW and potentially quite FUN. The old matches 1-12 were extremely boring.
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So let me get this straight......you think matches 1-12 (where you shoot standing sitting kneeling AND prone, shoot rapid fire, quick exposure snap matches, fire and movement and even occasionally movers)is boring....but belly shooting is going to be fun and exciting? Lol. What am i missing here?
I have generally found that when there is disdain for matches 1-12 it is usually given by people who are terrible at them lol.
 
IMO Match 1-16 could be improved if there was less lag time. I think there are too many sighters, there is too much prep time. Radioing scores also is a slow way to do anything. Get flip cards for score or score all in the butts.

Matches 1-16 could be organized the same as CAFSAC. 4 matches total, each with 4 stages. Start with your sighters, roll on to deliberates, then snap, rapids and run downs in short order. Perhaps pause after the snap to bomb mags just to cut down on the total number of mags needed (would change from the current three up to 4). I could even support indication of hits. Getting rid of all the sighters and prep times would do a lot to speed up the pace but keep the shooting the same. Speeding things up helps keep it interesting and allows more ability to make up for lost time due to weather and such.

Stage II could be revised to be very similar to CAFSAC Match 14 and speed things up there as well. You could go through that so fast that you could have everybody shoot it with 4 relays and be done in the morning easy.
 
beltfed said:
I also find it curious why f-classers would want to run a separate match with a course of fire based on f-class?
Why not adopt another class within the f-class sport and have guys with gas guns shoot with you guys all the time?
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FTRRookie said:
Because we thought it would be fun, but based on the tone of many of the responses I'm starting to wonder whether we should even bother! We're not trying to create some new form of F-Class here, we just thought this might be something different for guys with gas guns to try, and see how their rifles and ammunition would do under different conditions.
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So, back to my original question:
(and aside from this particular match)
Why not create another class within the F-Class discipline?
Is there no appetite within F-Class to see auto loaders compete in the matches?
It would certainly open up the sport to possibly younger shooters and would be a fantastic gateway class - imho
 
There are already guys who shoot F-Class using gas guns, that is not new. They compete within the established rules (no loading from the mag) in the appropriate division for their equipment (caliber, front rest, weight, etc.) on the 0.5 MOA V-bull target. The guys shooting these guns are typically doing so for a particular reason (loss of a limb, or other challenge), and this is the thing that is allowing them to continue enjoying the sport.

If this match is as much fun as we're hoping then maybe it grows into something bigger, whether as a standalone hybrid of SR/F-Class/TR or as a development tool for new shooters. If not, it's still going to be a great day at the range and I can almost guarantee that the guys who do come will end up learning lots about wind reading, and the capabilities of their rifles and ammunition, which hopefully works back into making them stronger SR shooters.
 
FTRRookie said:
The NCRRA is considering running a one day competition at Connaught this summer intended for AR pattern rifles. We have borrowed/adapted the NRA's new match format that has ARs shot in a manner similar to a TR/F-Class competition prone, at midrange (300, 500, 600m) on DCRA TR targets (1 MOA V-Bull). We are looking at offering an Open, and CAF/LE (using issue equipment and ammo) division.

Draft rules are here: Midrange AR Competition Rules

We'd rather get feedback now than run it and either have nobody show up, or screw it up completely!

So, what do you think?

Cheers,

Scott
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For the divisions, I'd suggest a few things.

Keep 2, but have Service Division and Open Division.

Service division would be any stock configuration service rifle (C7/C8 or similar pattern AR, Swiss Arms, Tavor, etc) with issued optic or other optic of 4x or less. Specialty rifles such as a Mk 12 SPR/clone thereof would be considered open class.

Open is any semi-auto mag fed rifle not conforming to the above standard.

No limit on bi-pods, but using one puts you in to Open division. Magazine rests may be used in Service division.

Thoughts?
 
Just a quick update for all considering shooting this match. Based on feedback received here, and outside CGN, we have made a few changes of note to the NRAs rules to better suit what we are trying to accomplish. Highlights include:

- Open to all military pattern semi automatic rifles of approved caliber. This basically means no .338 or .50; I know not likely but it has to be stated.
- 3 Divisions: CAF/LE (with issue equipment), Open - 5.56, and Open - Other than 5.56
- Restriction on muzzle devices removed - brakes, and issued suppressors are permitted.
- Resting on magazine is permitted in all divisions

We're putting the final touches on the revised set of rules, and will hopefully have the go ahead from NCRRA in the next few days. Thanks to all who helped us get this fine tuned.

Scott
 
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My contribution to this dialogue is simply that all shooters have a specific opinion on things but when it comes down to the crunch it's usually 2 - 3 guys doing 90%+ of the work.

To to those guys all I can say is thank you.

In the meantime the scope creep on this thread is not helping the original post who is trying to organize something.
 
It seems like it has been a long time since the NCRRA has run any "service rifle type" matches of any kind. I for one would be happy to see them get back into this.

I understand that Canadian SR is a steep learning curve for newbie shooters, and also difficult for inexperienced range staff to run. Tactical matches with barricades or scenarios are even more difficult and time consuming to set up and run, so I think that anything that gets more people out on the range shooting their gas-guns in an organised event is a good start. Baby Steps / keep it simple. The advice to use the NSCC deliberate matches as a template is something I agree with. Simple matches with ready made rules and COF that is already adapted and suitable for Connaught range using targets that are available there.

You can never get away from the grumbling and complaining. I remember in the 1990's NCRRA hosted the Colt Cup matches using US Highpower type rules, and the matches were well attended (probably because they were giving away Colt AR15's as prizes!). Back then, there were US hi-power competitors who attended (and were using adjustable NM sights, heavy barrels, shooting jackets, hats with special brims that shielded from the sun, special glasses and "gloves" that had a pocket to hold the AR mag in the standing position) were complaining that the uniformed Canadian soldiers who were shooting using the thin-barreled, fixed iron sight carry-handle C7's of the day were "cheating" somehow because they were wearing their issued web gear! Too bad for the whiners, I took home a new Colt AR, and their complaining got them nowhere.

Whatever you choose to do, I wish the NCRRA luck, and I may attend if my schedule allows.
 
Longshot said:
So let me get this straight......you think matches 1-12 (where you shoot standing sitting kneeling AND prone, shoot rapid fire, quick exposure snap matches, fire and movement and even occasionally movers)is boring....but belly shooting is going to be fun and exciting? Lol. What am i missing here?
I have generally found that when there is disdain for matches 1-12 it is usually given by people who are terrible at them lol.
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The matches were 200m prone deliberate. 300m prone for del+rapid+snap, 500 all prone. 7 out of 12 were 100% prone. 2/12 were run downs that included prone at 500+300. Only 3 matches were non-prone for their entirety. It was the epitome of prone shooting competitions.

PLUS The deliberate was indicated after EVERY shot and it took forever. Every match except the run downs had 2 sighters - indicated after every shot. The old matches 1-12 had more sighters than the current precision matches.

You might want to get your old shooting book out and look at the times between matches. Talk about down time. Then again you probably don't know what a shooting book is. lol
 
Lol well... im kinda at the point where my shooting book has run its course. Dont really need it anymore. And nowhere did i say that there wasnt a fair bit of prone in 1-12. Still even the way it is shooting prone deliberates, snaps, rapids and fire with movement is FAR more exciting than one shot at a time indicated for each. So i kinda fail to see your point. You're saying that all belly is more exciting than some belly and some positional? Hmm doesnt seem logical.
 
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Following CFSAC 2009 DND decided that the matches they were using (1-12) needed a revamp as they were not "operationally relevant".
This could have gone either way. Thankfully the people charged with the remake gathered a number of people with a history of skill and experience both competitively and operationally .....................and sadly ignored them. The resulting travesty of CAFSAC 2010 was epic. Imagine no published rules, no published course of fire, and each relay shooting something similar but different. 400m kneeling off barriers that kept blowing away in the wind and 20 round 20 minute kneeling matches at US Coast Guard targets with no scoring areas come to mind.
The DCRA adapted by adding more of what they were already doing (As the CAFSAC COF went no farther back than 400m NSCC introduced the 4x400m mound matches) that addition IMO costs more time than it has ever been worth.

It was terrible and drove myself and many others to cling to and think 1-12 was a better set of matches than the revamped COF (which they were).

A few years later the current CAFSAC course of fire works well and I have come to the conclusion that the slow NSCC 1-12 with sighters and feed back indication is a great set of matches when training value is the goal, but rather slow and hand holdy as far as competitions go (still better than how the Brits drag out the NRA matches). At the same time the current CAFSAC course of fire is a good test but a poor teacher of the basics.

SO in the end I like the BCRA 1-12 COF, CAFSAC COF and US CMP EIC COF way more than the current NSCC COF when it comes to square flat competitions.
 
With all due respect guys, if we could keep this thread on topic I'd really appreciate it. I know there are lots of opinions around the CoF for NSCC, but I'm also quite certain that a thread on a prone gas gun match run by a couple of F'ers is not the best spot for a focused discussion on that topic.

On a more forward looking note we have the TSR completed and a draft entry form done up. Can't confirm anything until we hear back from Range Control, but if you're interested in attending this match then I'd suggest leaving your June 4th weekend free.

More info soon.

Scott
 
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