"military like" Semi's to be restricted

rcmp/association of police chiefs = the new world order, alive and well and coming for your guns (and other rights and freedoms) in Canada.

let's face it..... the stones have been thrown, thier intentions have been made perfectly clear, as has Ignatief's liberals. The Liberal mind set and lust for control is obviously deeply ingrained in the top brass of our country's LEO agencies.
this should concern all canadians.... not just the law abiding gun owners.

I'll believe it when I see some evidence. The conjecture that I'm seeing here isn't evidence. Ignatief's Liberals are not in power and the Conservatives, specifically said that no new bans would be forthcoming. They are also doing their level best to meet their promise to eliminate the long gun registry (which is all they promised to do - nothing more).

I find it amazing how quickly people fly off the handle around here and start driving rumour with more rumour and then suddenly accepting these trumped up rumours as facts.
 
Interesting, yet scary, as this essentially puts ALL repeating firearms on the potential chopping block ...

The "easily converted" is a Canadian thing ever since the Hasslewander Supreme court ruling. Supreme Court rulings automatically become law.

REASONS FOR DECISION
This is a re-hearing of an appeal under subsection 68(2) of the Customs Act [1] (the Act) further to a decision of the Federal Court of Canada - Trial Division (the Federal Court), setting aside and returning back for reconsideration a Tribunal decision in the original matter. [2] The re-hearing of this matter proceeded by way of video conference in Hull, Quebec, and Edmonton, Alberta.

As in the Tribunal's original decision, the goods in issue are 910 firearms of 23 different types. These firearms were seized by Customs and further classified by the respondent as “offensive weapons” under Code 9965 of Schedule VII to the Customs Tariff, [3] which refers to the definition of “prohibited weapon” in the Criminal Code. [4] The Tribunal, in its original decision, found that, but for three types of firearms, the goods in issue were not prohibited weapons under the Criminal Code and, therefore, that they did not fall within the meaning of “offensive weapons” under the Customs Tariff. The appellants and the respondent appealed that decision to the Federal Court.

The Tribunal's decision was based, among other things, on its interpretation of case law relevant to the interpretation of the words “prohibited weapons” in criminal proceedings. A specific argument made at that time concerned the possible reconversion of the firearms. These firearms, prior to their importation, had been modified to allegedly prevent them from firing in automatic mode. This argument was central to the case because the Criminal Code defines “prohibited weapon” as “any firearm” that is “capable of firing bullets in rapid succession during one pressure of the trigger” (emphasis added). The case law that was cited revolved around the interpretation of the word “capable,” hence, the importance of the reconversion issue.

In its decision, the Tribunal, after examining the case law, made a statement as to its irrelevance in a customs matter as opposed to a criminal proceeding. The Federal Court found that this constituted an error in interpretation. The matter was, thus, referred back to the Tribunal for reconsideration. Consequently, the only issue before the Tribunal is an issue of law. Furthermore, based on the Federal Court's reasons and order, the Tribunal's reconsideration dealt with the application of judicial interpretations of the words “prohibited weapon” to the evidence on the record. This was not a hearing de novo. Therefore, at the hearing, counsel relied on the evidence on the record in the original matter, including expert testimony of armourers who were called by both sides to explain either the conversion that took place prior to importation or the reconversion that was done based on a random selection of each type of firearm.

In his oral argument, counsel for one of the appellants, Douglas Anderson (counsel for the appellant), acknowledged that, since the seizure of the goods in issue, the case law has changed significantly, particularly since the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada in Her Majesty the Queen v. Bernhard Hasselwander. [5] Counsel admitted that, based on the evidence on the record, it appeared that some of the goods in issue would be able to be reconverted to their fully automatic mode status. Counsel further admitted that, even though the goods in issue were seized in 1985, the law that applies is the law as it stands today. Consequently, counsel added, the only issue for the Tribunal is to determine whether the length of time that it took the respondent's expert to reconvert the firearms falls within the parameters of the decision in Hasselwander. Counsel argued, in this regard, that there was some evidence from the appellant's expert as to the time and expertise required to reconvert the goods in issue. He asked the Tribunal to consider that evidence when applying the principles set forth in Hasselwander.

Also relying on Hasselwander, counsel for the respondent argued that the Supreme Court of Canada determined that the word “capable” means “capable of conversion to an automatic weapon in a relatively short period of time with relative ease [6] ” (emphasis added). Counsel further relied on the Tribunal's decision in Special Missions Group Limited v. The Deputy Minister of National Revenue, [7] a case, she claimed, similar to the one at hand in terms of modifications brought to the firearms. The Tribunal, in that case, applied the Hasselwander decision and found that the firearms were capable of being reconverted to automatic weapons in a relatively short period of time with relative ease. Counsel added that the Tribunal also concluded that it was irrelevant whether the replacement parts were actually available and whether the firearms were imported by people who were knowledgeable on weapons. Counsel argued that the type of tools and parts used in this case to reconvert the goods in issue into the automatic mode are such that the goods were capable of being reconverted with relative ease. Given that the time of reconversion ranged from 30 seconds to 37 minutes, counsel concluded that the time period was also relatively short. On that basis, the goods in issue were “prohibited weapons” at the time of their importation.

It is worth noting that most of the written submissions of counsel for the appellant dealt with the availability of other programmes and remedies, including a deactivation procedure monitored by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and the disposition of goods illegally imported or the disposal of things abandoned or forfeit under sections 102 and 142 of the Act respectively. Although, at the hearing, counsel moved away from these submissions, the Tribunal wishes to clarify that it does not have jurisdiction with respect to any of these programmes or remedies. The Tribunal's jurisdiction, in this case, is limited to determining the classification of the goods in issue under section 67 and subsection 68(2) of the Act.

As admitted by counsel for the appellant, the case law has changed considerably since the Tribunal's original decision, particularly since the Hasselwander decision. The Tribunal is of the view that, in light of that decision, the only issue is to determine whether the length of time and the ease or difficulty with which it took the respondent's expert to reconvert a sample of these firearms make them fall within the parameters of the Hasselwander case. The Tribunal also notes that, contrary to the case law that existed at the time of the original decision, the Hasselwander decision makes it clear that the word “capable” in the English version of the definition of “prohibited weapon” includes “a potential for conversion [8] ” and that the definition of the word “pouvant” in the French version includes “a potential which has yet to be realized, a future possibility as opposed to just an immediate capacity. [9] ” Thus, in cases involving converted firearms (or reconverted firearms for that matter), the Supreme Court of Canada has established two criteria for determining whether a specific firearm is capable of firing bullets in the so-called automatic mode, namely, a relatively short period of time for the conversion and the relative ease of that conversion.

Having examined the evidence on the basis of the criteria in Hasselwander, the Tribunal finds that the reconversion of the goods in issue to the automatic mode was done in a relatively short period of time, ranging from 30 seconds to 37 minutes. The Tribunal notes, in this regard, that, in Special Missions Group, reconversion work ranging from five minutes to one hour was found to fall within the parameters of the Hasselwander decision. As to the relative ease with which the reconversion was made, the Tribunal is of the view that among the factors to consider are the type of tools involved (including the general, as opposed to the specialized, nature of the tools involved, their complexity, etc.) and the availability of the parts or the ease with which they can be either adapted or replaced. The Tribunal notes, in this regard, that the testimony of the respondent's expert was that the reconversion took place not in a machine shop but merely in the armourer's workshop of the Calgary Police Service. The tools used included a drill press, a grinder, a Dremel tool, an arc welding set, an acetylene torch, emery paper, files, grinding stones and hacksaws. As to the parts used, only in one instance was it necessary to make a piston head, otherwise the piston heads were found with the firearms. In the Tribunal's view, most of the tools used are not complex, while the parts used were readily available or were easy to replace and, therefore, the reconversion also meets the second test of Hasselwander. The Tribunal finally notes that counsel for the appellant has made no arguments regarding the three types of firearms that were able to fire in the automatic mode as taken from the shipment.

The Tribunal concludes that all the goods in issue are “prohibited weapons” within the definition of the Criminal Code and, consequently, that they fall under the definition of “offensive weapons” within the meaning of Code 9965 of Schedule VII to the Customs Tariff, which prohibits their importation into Canada.


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Interesting, yet scary, as this essentially puts ALL repeating firearms on the potential chopping block ...

Not necessarily. Most semi-automatic firearms are not "capable of conversion to an automatic weapon in a relatively short period of time with relative ease."

The RCMP would be taking the law to an extreme stretch if they do indeed reclassify military style firearms using this provision. Also, the fact that they are reclassifying guns which they have already approved for sale in Canada is not going to help their cause if this ever goes to court.
 
I guess it all depends on the yet defined "relative ease" (there were examples back at the beginning of the century of bolt-action rifles being turned into FA machine guns)... As far as guns approved for sale in Canada and then reclassified, there are precedents, the G22 for example .... And courts still have to rule on that one.

Not necessarily. Most semi-automatic firearms are not "capable of conversion to an automatic weapon in a relatively short period of time with relative ease."

The RCMP would be taking the law to an extreme stretch if they do indeed reclassify military style firearms using this provision. Also, the fact that they are reclassifying guns which they have already approved for sale in Canada is not going to help their cause if this ever goes to court.
 
I'll believe it when I see some evidence. The conjecture that I'm seeing here isn't evidence.

We likely won't see evidence until it is far too late, not that it likely isn't already.


I find it amazing how quickly people fly off the handle around here and start driving rumour with more rumour and then suddenly accepting these trumped up rumours as facts.
This website is one of the biggest thorns in the sides of the antis...a fact they are fully aware of. I personally think it is high time they were flushed off the site... might as well start with you.;)
 
That definition of "capable" is ridiculous and far fetched. Reminds me of the joke about the women charged with fishing without a licence because there's a rod in the boat. She tells the game warden that he should be charged with rape because he is carrying the tools to commit the crime as well.
 
“capable of conversion to an automatic weapon in a relatively short period of time with relative ease [6] ”

I don't think conversion to FA is the same thing as rigging something to make it go fast for half a second before it explodes out of battery. Even the Paladin Press gofaster conversion guides involve fabrication beyond the skill of the average person.

Of course, the evaluation will be a backroom deal based on false statements. Not that those folks ever make false statements, of course.
 
All of the restricted, non-restricted and most prohibited and converted autos are not easily converted or converted back....

Ps. - you should be number two;)

well one could make a "lightning link" for an ar15 in about 20 minutes from a hacksaw blade and go full auto.
it would take even less time to modify an SKS trigger group with a dremel and get full automatic capability .
1911's also go full auto quite easily as anyone who has done trigger work on one will attest.
 
“capable of conversion to an automatic weapon in a relatively short period of time with relative ease [6] ”

I don't think conversion to FA is the same thing as rigging something to make it go fast for half a second before it explodes out of battery. Even the Paladin Press gofaster conversion guides involve fabrication beyond the skill of the average person.

Of course, the evaluation will be a backroom deal based on false statements. Not that those folks ever make false statements, of course.

well one could make a "lightning link" for an ar15 in about 20 minutes from a hacksaw blade and go full auto.
it would take even less time to modify an SKS trigger group with a dremel and get full automatic capability .
1911's also go full auto quite easily as anyone who has done trigger work on one will attest.

Which is called a slam fire and in the case of a rifle with a rotating bolt it's called an out of battery slam fire, refer to Juster's post about that. Not exactly what should be considered converting to FA.
 
So is a rubber band illegal???
Can't these make any semi go "full"?
This is like beating a dead horse hoping it will come back to life. If "we law abiding people" are to be trusted in owning firearms. Als under go back ground checks, registration and have to pass safety tests. Then we should be asking the powers to be;
Why can we own these?
What else do we have to provide or do that shows you that we are "safe and lawful people"?
We want to have the respect and trust that we deserive and expect from them.
Untill we can acheive this the same discussion wil be played out time and time again. Yes my friends I know this is quite sad.
 
this full auto conversion crap is just that ..............anyone knows trying such a thing on a firearm that wasn't designed to do it (and with only a five round magazine) is inaccurate dumb and dangerous
 
this full auto conversion crap is just that ..............anyone knows trying such a thing on a firearm that wasn't designed to do it (and with only a five round magazine) is inaccurate dumb and dangerous

I would like to propose that if it is dangerous, it isn't a conversion.

I've doubled inadvertently, I didn't perform a conversion.

Conversion would be re-engineering the gun to work properly on FA.



Edit: I can convert an exhaust pipe into a machine gun in 30 minutes with just a Dremel. So all cars are machine guns.
 
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