Military Rifles Vs. Winter Weather, Ice and Snow

This is a two fold question:
1. Design
2. Servicing

Bolt actions are generally more reliable then semi auto's. Less moving parts, etc. More moving parts generally require more lubricants and are more prone to breakage.

The best cold weather rifles can be rendered useless in cold weather. I went hunting with my father two years ago in -45 weather. His Sako (Finnish rifle) had a hang fire (firing pin slowed due to oil in the bolt) and my Weatherby Mark V had a miss fire (firing pin slowed by oil in the bolt and didn't hit the primer hard enough). The second round chambered in my Mark V did fire. Lesson learned, don't excessively oil you firearms or if hunting in cold weather use teflon lubricants which are not effected by the cold.

The same goes with WWII arms. The Germans had Winter Lubricants, but in the extreme Russian cold, they simply froze. They then tried petrol, but even that jellied. The Soviets had better luck with a petrol/oil/alcohol mix which seemed to work well.

Pissing on a bolt might work, but it would eventually freeze pretty darn quickly. You can also work most rifles without lubricants, but it will generally increase wear.

I think all the rifles mentioned would work well if serviced properly for cold weather. I own most of them (Garand, Enfield, K98 Mauser, SVT, SKS, Mosin Nagant, G43). I have used most of them in cool weather (-15) without issues during deer season. All are great designs in there own right.

In real cold weather I would edge towards the bolt rifles and then the semi's with the SKS first on my list (very simple design, with few moving parts).

Extreme cold can have a huge impact of firearms. I read an article on a guy who hunted polar bear in the arctic and the cold weather even caused his trigger to break snap off (metal became that brittle), among other problems (not a word of a lie).

This is one of the reasons that Canada has one series of AK actions that is Non-Restricted and not Prohibited. The Finns improved the AK action/design for extreme cold weather and released the Valmet series of AK actions (The AK action is a semi but also one of the most dependable in the world). Originally rifles like the Valmet Hunter and M78 were on the Prohib list until the Inuit and northern hunters along with some political reasoning convinced the Feds to take the Valmets off the Prohib list, which resulted in them being on the Non-Restricted list. This is a little know loop hole. The only problem is Valmet doesn't make new rifles and the ones in the system generally sell for $3000+.

I think the CZ858 with a teflon lubricant should also work well. The teflon coating has a similar friction coeficient to ice but is dry and cannot freeze. If using it, make sure all parts including in side the bolt are cleaned of previous oils before applying or the old oil will simply still freeze up.

Cheers
 
The Russian Mosin would be my choice.I've recently read that the American made Mosins,(remington,westinghouse) were prone to having the bolts freeze up. They were despised by the Russian forces.
I actually have one on the way and may do a test to see if this is so. I've put guns in the oven so why not the freezer. Of course it will be wrapped in a protective blanket. The one I have coming apparently has Remington on the receiver, Reich marks on the stock, and SA marked as well. I can't wait.
 
I actually talked with a Korean War vet about this.
He put it bluntly.
"The Garands froze up.
We just put the bolts of our No4s in our pockets."
 
Remember also that SOP with the Garand was lubricating the rifle
on the locking lugs
in the locking recesses
on the tail of the bolt
inside the receiver where the tail of the bolt rotates
on the hammer nose
inside the operating-rod cam track
on the bolt cam lug
on the operating-rod frame lug
in the operating-rod frame track.......
with a fairly heavy GREASE. That's what the little grease-cup in the butt was for. It was transparant with a yellow plastic lid marked prominently GREASE, RIFLE and contained a thick, heavy red-brown grease.

The problem would not be so great NOW because we have wonderful oilfield greases such as LUBRIPLATE 105, but the ISSUE grease could set up as solid as concete when the temps hit 30 below or so.

Still, a Number 4 bolt in the pocket does beat a Garand stuffed into your pants or hiding in your sleeping-bag, especially if you have 30 seconds of warning when the gooks come over the hill.

"In war, that which is simplest is that which works best."
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For a bolt action rifle, the Lee Enfield has an unparalled record of functionability in harsh weather conditions from 1914 to 2012. For a semi auto rifle, my vote goes to the Garand, back in Feb '75 (helmets on), I was on exercise with the Americans in Ft Wainwright Alaska, we had M16A1's and the Eskimo Ranger enemy force had Garands. Long story made short over a 10 day ex, they made mincemeat out of us. Why? Their guns worked in Arctic temperatures, ours didn't, no matter what we did. I have also shot the "Battle of the Bulge" match in Shilo in December and my Garand performed flawlessly.
 
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We have probably been on the same range at the same time, then!

Garands that make it through the Shilo Battle of the Bulge seem to me never to be lubricated to US military specs, though. That's a good piece of the reason that they work.

No matter: the Garand likely IS the best semi-auto for poor conditions..... but it's a proper bear to lug through the woods, looking for Bambi. I would have to be 30 years younger to enjoy doing that again.

Guess I'm turning into a wimp in my old age!
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FWIW, in 30 years of living "north of 60" I never, ever, saw or heard of a Valmet hunting rifle that had been supplied to any Inuit.
Have heard the story wrt a few Indian bands, south of 60.
Most any rifle will work in the cold if properly prepared.
Bought a couple of really used, dirty, never put into grease for storage SKS rifles. These were real used surplus guns, not well preserved war reserve rifles.
Took them out to test fire the day they arrived. No cleaning, no preparation. It was -35. Worked without a bobble or hiccup.
Sold a number of commercial non-restricted AKs. No one reported any cold weather issues.
Have seen a number of ruined bot action rifles which froze up, and were spoiled by battering or heating over a coleman stove. Ever see a rifle with a burned stock from being held upside down over a burner?
Proper preparation is the key. Without knowing what any given service was supplying for cold weather lube, it is hard to say which rifle would be best. Its not just the rifle, its the support services and training as well.
 
Good points, TIRIAQ.

I hadn't even considered the SKS because of the fact that it is below a 30-30 in horsepower..... and I consider the .30-30 pretty much the minimum for a kill shot on a deer.

What you are saying makes all the sense in the world: training and support are CRITICAL. So is the KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING of what you are doing. Part of the military/hunting educational process, one woud think.
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Have to add a comment about the thoughts about it being so cold the metal got brittle and snapped.
I've spent my entire adult life working on rigs here in Canada. And I'm still waiting to see the metal shatter like glass. And I've seen incredibly insane abuses of metal on metal in minus stupid cold. Hammering on cast unions with sledgehammers (SOP), accidental drops of 500+lb drillpipe onto hollow steel beams; crazy stuff.
Never seen metal shatter like the stories. Could happen I suppose but if it does it was most likely flawed or poor quality cast. IMO.
Add grease or oil to moving parts and you are f--ked, yes;without a doubt. Get abusive to it when it's stuck and it'll break. But it'll break from abuse trying to free stuck parts, not because it was so cold it snapped.
Dry and free you'll not snap metal from the cold, from abuse yes you will break stuff.
Jellied gasoline? Diesel yes but gasoline; never seen it. Ice crystals from contaminated fuel, sure.
Wash the bolt and moving parts in gasoline and re-assemble dry; should work IMO
 
Jellied gasoline?

Yes. It got COLD at Stalingrad: about 65 below on the F scale. They kept fires burning under the ENGINES of the Junkers 52/3ms, just so they would be certain to start at all. They left quite a few A/C behind at Stalingrad simply because they couldn't get the things started...... and those were all DRY-SUMP engines.

The Germans ran their whole army on gasoline, but it sure wasn't the best quality. In the entire German military, there was exactly ONE vehicle that was rated for 100-octane fuel: General Galland's personal ME-109G. We had 100-octane by the multiple shiploads; the Yanks even ran their tanks on the stuff because it was so common! The manual for my 1942 Harley says that I am suposed to use high-quality fuel in it: 74 octane or better. I don't even know WHERE to find gas that lousy!

Comparatively very few German vehicles ran on Diesel fuel.
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Smellie, the lube that I have been using on my Battle Rifles since 1979, is called Super Lube grease, ht tp://www.super-lube.com/ . I've had especially good luck with it shooting for years in BC when it pi$$ed down rain on the island during the winters. During one range visit, I had "to make brass" and put 160 rds down range without a break, end result was that the forestock was starting to smoke. When I cleaned the rifle, the grease was still intact. I used to get it from Canadian Tire but find lately only Home hardware has it or will order it for you.

Also I shot the match in Shilo in December 2007. I was dressed as a Patricia Sniper Sgt circa Apeldoorn Holland 14 April 1945. The Patricia Duty Sgt at Range Control that day, really got a laugh at my uniform until he found out that my regimental coin only had 3 numbers. He was good about it as he ended up as my spotter later that day. I had a good day, it only took me 8 rds of .30-06 tracer to take out the target in the tower with my Garand with iron sights.
 
Grizzly Adams said:
All the German guns apparently suffered from close tolerances, making them unsuitable for cold climates when lubricated in the "approved" way. German Engineering shot itself in the foot, so to speak. :D

Grizz
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Ah yes, the often discussed, sometimes lamented, loose tolerances of the Lee Enfield. Same advantage on the Ak47. Generous engineering is how I like to think of it.
 
TWKI've had my enfield out in -45c no issues what so ever. Also heard somewhere that the Russians used a bit of kerosene in the actions to keep them from freezing. Not sure if this is true. But German manufacturing has always been stupidly over engineered great for when they work but a clusterf__k to repair if sometnig goes wrong. Tiger tank great example leaps and bounds superior to the Sherman but you could piece together a working Sherman from several dead ones. The Tigers all had to be hauled back to Berlin for repair. Hualing a 30+ ton tank from Russia to Germany is a feat in itself.TWK
 
dgradinaru said:
i think that the k98k would be best suited for cold condition, k98k fought in cold weather like Stalingrad, the bulge and etc. Its battle proven.
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If I remember correctly, at Stalingrad AND the Battle of Bulge, the army that used the K98k came a resounding second. ;)

Ask Simo Hayha about the M-N - after all, he used one to drop over 600 Soviet soldiers at temps around -40.....

My $0.02.

tac
 
dgradinaru said:
i think that the k98k would be best suited for cold condition, k98k fought in cold weather like Stalingrad, the bulge and etc. Its battle proven.
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There are a huge pile of dead german soldiers who would disagree. Frozen shut 98's were almost a cliche on the russian front. the lube would freeze solid rendering the 98 a marginally effective club.
 
An elderly gentleman who had served in the East told me "Our machinegun 34 would not work in the cold; our machinegun 42 would".
 
Garand said:
Smellie, the lube that I have been using on my Battle Rifles since 1979, is called Super Lube grease, ht tp://www.super-lube.com/ . I've had especially good luck with it shooting for years in BC when it pi$$ed down rain on the island during the winters. During one range visit, I had "to make brass" and put 160 rds down range without a break, end result was that the forestock was starting to smoke. When I cleaned the rifle, the grease was still intact. I used to get it from Canadian Tire but find lately only Home hardware has it or will order it for you.

Also I shot the match in Shilo in December 2007. I was dressed as a Patricia Sniper Sgt circa Apeldoorn Holland 14 April 1945. The Patricia Duty Sgt at Range Control that day, really got a laugh at my uniform until he found out that my regimental coin only had 3 numbers. He was good about it as he ended up as my spotter later that day. I had a good day, it only took me 8 rds of .30-06 tracer to take out the target in the tower with my Garand with iron sights.
Click to expand...

?????????????.........:confused:.........??????????
 
tiriaq said:
An elderly gentleman who had served in the East told me "Our machinegun 34 would not work in the cold; our machinegun 42 would".
Click to expand...

Smellie's post about the mg34 would back this up. Know your enemy. If the environment is your enemy too, you had better know it just as well. This thread reminds me of the Ross muddy trench issues, M14 in a wood stock in vietnam, 5.56 issues on skinny guys at long range... bring the right tool for the job, and the job isn't as hard.
 
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