Mill machines and what to get
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DLC said:
The two most commonly said comments that I have heard from user of the three in one machines is that they are a little better than no lathe at all, and as a mill, the most benefit comes from the workout that your imagination gets trying to get anything set up on it.
If you are patient and have a well developed sense of humor and adventure, they may be the tool you are looking for, but if you are prone to expecting things to come out the way the plan was made, maybe they are not.
I have spoken with several guys that had a lot of machining experience, and they were able to make parts on these type of machines, and the guys that had little machining experience generally ended up really frustrated with them.
You can do a lot with as basic a mill as the round column mill-drill units that are available for around $1500, but they are definately not in the class of a Bridgeport style machine. They are also a far better drill press than anything else that can be bought (drill presses) in the same price range, and a good drill press is a very useful thing to have.
And once you get a taste of using a mill with a Digital Readout, that reliably returns to where it says it is at, you will be spoiled for lesser machines.
Expect to have to spend almost as much on tooling as on the mill, if you expect to be able to make what you want, when you want. That tends to hold true whether you get an expensive mill or a cheap one, as the costs of tooling and accoutrements tends to scale to the size and quality of the machine. Though you can get by with a basic selection of tools on hand, you will find your toolbox lacking in the middle of a job, and either have to bodge something together to make it work (bad thing), or wait while your order comes in (also bad).
You are going to want some decent measuring equipment as well.
A decent lathe can do an awful pile of work, but a used, clapped out lathe can BE an awful pile of work (and cash) to put right enough to get some decent use out of. Same goes for used milling machines. If you do not have any real experience with machine tools to draw on, it might be wisest to hook up with an experienced friend when you start looking at machines.
With very few exceptions, these machines were bought at some point for work, and they did work. When they were not productive enough, or when they could no longer hold tolerances, they were sold off or put to other uses. It is valuable to be able to recognise a machine that has a shiny new coat of paint, but is stil a worn out piece of junk, as well as to recognise whether a machine is capable of meeting your needs, in terms of both accuracy and capacities.
If you get lucky and stumble on one of the cherry machines that were bought, used gently, and were well taken care of, being able to recognise that it is worthwhile to eat beans and rice for a while to pay for it (unless you are really lucky and it's selling cheap) is another skill worth working on.
Cheers
Trev
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Matt_S said:
Agreed! Used an old TOS from chzekosolvakia I believe, and it was rigid as all get up, but you are gona have to hunt for one I think because they are ancient (when I say ancient I mean they look like Hitler made his hand grenades on it). Never taken that heavy of a cut on her though.
mouse said:
Yeah the one I use looks like a cold war relic,but looks can be deceiving.it's a real diamond in the rough.
We have an ancient kearney&Trekker universal milling machine as well which is equally as impressive.
The general feeling is that the combination machines have many compromises built into their designs. The Shoptask is a bit different from the others. Their warranty is really interesting, and worth a look. I've never seen anything quite like it, for any product. It suggests that they are quite confidant that the machine is going to be satisfactory.
precision_lee
CGN Regular
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very well put, this should be a sticky, when buying used remember They have all been crashed at least once and if somebody says otherwise they are lying. So buy new you'll appreciate it later.If you have little or no exp take a night class or 2 so you can make mistakes on their stuff. especially if it is an NC,things happen quick....I know taker easy! Leetrevj said:
TOS doesnt excist anymore its now Trens (http://www.trens.sk/eng/index.htm) 
TOS/Trens are nice machines I'm told. Alot of the better Tiwanese machines are good, HH Roberts are made in Tiwan and they're pretty good from me using their mills (http://www.hhrobertsmachinery.com/).
I'd suggest you avoid the Chinese makes of mills and lathes, I hear nothing but problems from thouse.
Dimitri
TOS/Trens are nice machines I'm told. Alot of the better Tiwanese machines are good, HH Roberts are made in Tiwan and they're pretty good from me using their mills (http://www.hhrobertsmachinery.com/).
I'd suggest you avoid the Chinese makes of mills and lathes, I hear nothing but problems from thouse.
Dimitri
Dimitri said:TOS doesnt excist anymore its now Trens (http://www.trens.sk/eng/index.htm)
TOS/Trens are nice machines I'm told. Alot of the better Tiwanese machines are good, HH Roberts are made in Tiwan and they're pretty good from me using their mills (http://www.hhrobertsmachinery.com/).
I'd suggest you avoid the Chinese makes of mills and lathes, I hear nothing but problems from thouse.
Dimitri
Not hard to tell when you look at the machines.All the feed and speed controls are identical to the TOS,right down to the gearshift style feed engagement.
Ditto on chinese made machines.Garbage,garbage,garbage
Just out of curiousity, does anyone here actually own and use - or owned and used - a Chinese machine tool? Any first hand experience? Who was the retailer?
A lot of them have been sold, and you don't often see one for sale. Or are they are so bad that the embarrassed owners haul them to the dump in the middle of the night?
A lot of them have been sold, and you don't often see one for sale. Or are they are so bad that the embarrassed owners haul them to the dump in the middle of the night?
tiriaq said:
The chinese tools have their issues. Some of them come pre-worn out, between the workmanship and the machining they have done to them. Others are simply a pre assembled machine tool kit, that need little more than a thorough going through to set right.
The quality levels are improving, and rapidly, too.
There tends to be a correlation between size and quality on them too, with the larger machines being far better built than the smaller ones.
I have had a couple Tiawanese mill-drills, and have run a couple different Chinese lathes with mixed feelings about the experience. They got the job done, but were not exactly "polished" in their presentation.
In the sizes large enough to be considered a gunsmiths lathe, I could buy a new Chinese one or a used fair condition American lathe and come out about even in the end. Could get good ones or poor ones either way.
Cheers
Trev
tiriaq,
Give the Chinese a few years like people gave the Japanese and they just might start producing a good machining product, but as of now all Chinese tools are hit or miss, with more tools at the miss side then the hit side it seems. Their economy expanded too fast and building tools and machines is more of a art then a science, so it takes time too develop a soild foundation of nessisary skilled workers to build these tools just like it took Japan.
I had a 0-1" Micrometer that was given to me marked "Made in China" isnt worth a d*mn not consistant at all, replaced it with a nice Starrett Series 436 made in their Athol MA USA plant. Couldn't be happeir!
Having said that there are expetions to the rule, take for example my Digital Calipers from Canadian Tire they are made in China but they are right on the thou when I measure with them.
In 30 years or so we just might see machines just as good as the old American/European build Iron of "yesteryear".
With the comment on Chinese machines I was just passing on the advice people who have bought, used, and junked Chinese machines have given me.
Dimitri
Give the Chinese a few years like people gave the Japanese and they just might start producing a good machining product, but as of now all Chinese tools are hit or miss, with more tools at the miss side then the hit side it seems. Their economy expanded too fast and building tools and machines is more of a art then a science, so it takes time too develop a soild foundation of nessisary skilled workers to build these tools just like it took Japan.
I had a 0-1" Micrometer that was given to me marked "Made in China" isnt worth a d*mn not consistant at all, replaced it with a nice Starrett Series 436 made in their Athol MA USA plant. Couldn't be happeir!
Having said that there are expetions to the rule, take for example my Digital Calipers from Canadian Tire they are made in China but they are right on the thou when I measure with them.
In 30 years or so we just might see machines just as good as the old American/European build Iron of "yesteryear".
With the comment on Chinese machines I was just passing on the advice people who have bought, used, and junked Chinese machines have given me.
Dimitri
Sometimes I think the situation is akin to that involving Norinco guns. Comments range from "They are all junk", through "Some of them are junk," to "Don't buy one, buy two".
This is why I was asking if anyone is actually using one, and who the retailer was. I have limited experience with a Chinese 12" lathe, years ago. It wasn't a bad machine, but I didn't use it enough to make a judgement.
I know of two gunsmiths who use KBC "Grip" brand lathes. Both 'smiths do fine work, and have excellent reputations.
I have done almost all my gunsmithing with 3 South Bends: a 10K (light 10"), a heavy 10", and a 16". Centre distances were 36", 36", 57". For older machines, a heavy 10x36 is a good gunsmithing lathe. The catch if finding a good one. I note that some of the Chinese machine tools being sold in the US are now described as coming from factories with an ISO rating.
I too have a Chinese digital caliper. Also have a Mitutoyo. Both are useful. All my micrometers are Western; one of my depth mike sets is a pre WW2 Mauser calibrated in Imperial units.
This is why I was asking if anyone is actually using one, and who the retailer was. I have limited experience with a Chinese 12" lathe, years ago. It wasn't a bad machine, but I didn't use it enough to make a judgement.
I know of two gunsmiths who use KBC "Grip" brand lathes. Both 'smiths do fine work, and have excellent reputations.
I have done almost all my gunsmithing with 3 South Bends: a 10K (light 10"), a heavy 10", and a 16". Centre distances were 36", 36", 57". For older machines, a heavy 10x36 is a good gunsmithing lathe. The catch if finding a good one. I note that some of the Chinese machine tools being sold in the US are now described as coming from factories with an ISO rating.
I too have a Chinese digital caliper. Also have a Mitutoyo. Both are useful. All my micrometers are Western; one of my depth mike sets is a pre WW2 Mauser calibrated in Imperial units.
tiriaq said:
I have used two, a mill and a lathe both bought from Modern Tool here in Calgary, when we upgraded the shop a few years ago and needed extra capacity on a budget.
These were not hobbyist machines, but full sized industrial models. I forget what brand they had stamped on the outside, but the manuals proclaimed that they were "Bison" brand.
Frankly, they were decent tools. I would have been fully satisfied with them if I had bought them myself.
My biggest, and maybe only complaint, was that the thread dial indicator was an utter POS. The gearing was wrong and thread cutting was impossible on that machine using it. So jigging it for thread cutting was a pain in the c*ck.
Other than that, they compare favorably to most machines out there.
The Chinese can already make machine tools as good as anyones in the world. The perception that all they make is crap has come about because the guys thay decide to import containerloads of stuff are trying to maximise their profits by buying the cheapest stuff they can get and marking it up as much as the market will bear.
Good bearings, good quality grinding equipment, and good workers all cost, so if you want top of the line, you have to pay for it, no matter where you get it from.
When it comes right down to it, most of the guys that have a metal lathe in their shop would never be able to afford to if it were not for the low grade tools being available. When South Bend Lathes went belly up they were selling a lathe that was a direct derivitave of the classic 9 inch Model A for over $20K US. The SB Model A sold for about $300 30 years back, and were far closer to being affordable for the common man.
Cheers
Trev
Good bearings, good quality grinding equipment, and good workers all cost, so if you want top of the line, you have to pay for it, no matter where you get it from.
When it comes right down to it, most of the guys that have a metal lathe in their shop would never be able to afford to if it were not for the low grade tools being available. When South Bend Lathes went belly up they were selling a lathe that was a direct derivitave of the classic 9 inch Model A for over $20K US. The SB Model A sold for about $300 30 years back, and were far closer to being affordable for the common man.
Cheers
Trev
Dimitri said:tiriaq,
Give the Chinese a few years like people gave the Japanese and they just might start producing a good machining product, but as of now all Chinese tools are hit or miss, with more tools at the miss side then the hit side it seems. Their economy expanded too fast and building tools and machines is more of a art then a science, so it takes time too develop a soild foundation of nessisary skilled workers to build these tools just like it took Japan.
I had a 0-1" Micrometer that was given to me marked "Made in China" isnt worth a d*mn not consistant at all, replaced it with a nice Starrett Series 436 made in their Athol MA USA plant. Couldn't be happeir!
Having said that there are expetions to the rule, take for example my Digital Calipers from Canadian Tire they are made in China but they are right on the thou when I measure with them.
In 30 years or so we just might see machines just as good as the old American/European build Iron of "yesteryear".
With the comment on Chinese machines I was just passing on the advice people who have bought, used, and junked Chinese machines have given me.
Dimitri
Busy Bee seems to sell a lot of crap,made in China measuring tools.i bought a set of 4"calipers from them that were absolute garbage.
I remember this french guy I used to work with had bought a chinese made pitch gage from busy bee.it was pretty funny because he was using it to check a thread he was cutting,and he was scrapping parts left and right,because according to his pitch gauge the threads were wrong.
After about an hour of him cussing in french and tearing the headstock apart to check the gearing he finally figured out his gauge was wrong.
Matt_S said:
I went once to Busy Bee back before I really new much about machining, bought myself a indexable carbide cutter set they sell for like 50$, the carbide wasn't good at all, but I did buy a couple of square 3/8" tool bits that are Chinese Carbide that were ok for what I was doing.
Now I don't go to Busy Bee anymore, I like dealing with KBC Tools bought some stuff there a few weeks ago was a nice experiance.
Dimitri
Dimitri said:I went once to Busy Bee back before I really new much about machining, bought myself a indexable carbide cutter set they sell for like 50$, the carbide wasn't good at all, but I did buy a couple of square 3/8" tool bits that are Chinese Carbide that were ok for what I was doing.
Now I don't go to Busy Bee anymore, I like dealing with KBC Tools bought some stuff there a few weeks ago was a nice experiance.
Dimitri
It's best not to cheap out when it comes to measuring tools and accessories.As far as the big names in measuring tools go I have found Mitutoyo to be the best value for the money.
Matt_S said:
You are 100% correct, its not good to buy cheap measuring tools, the Canadian Tire digital calipers were a gamble that turned out good for me. Polish tools are pretty good and they make them well if your on a tighter budget.
I've been buying Starrett mainly for my persistion tools.
Dimitri
fat tony
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I lucked out and managed to buy a nice 4inch Mitutoyu dial calipers. got them for a song and a dance. It's good day when you can rip off a pawn shop. I bought a number drill set from Busy Bee, and had to bring it back. I found out that lots of the bits were the same size(?????) If I get a letter or number set of drills you bet I am going to pay extra to get the good stuff; not at Busy Bee.
