Milling machine

mwjones said:
...Remember, bigger is always better if you have the space.
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Yep, bought one of these long ago and I consider it an entry level mill at 2,200lbs. :)
Before:

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After I restored it to factory specs.

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It does everything I need for smithing and some, but even with heavy cuts the J-Head is no match for a modern 3HP CNC machine.
 
You folks sure have deeper pockets than I do! I'm looking at a home hobby mill for my own shop but I simply cannot justify anything even close to the cost and size as these.

For those of you that work in the industry I can fully understand why you'd consider such a machine as a hobby level or for light duty use only. Where time is money big and heavy certainly rules the day. But for hobby use where we can take two or three lighter passes instead of one big gulp the less costly and lighter machines can still do just fine.

There's a comment about 31 inches of travel being enough to do barrel flutes. I haven't seen many barrels that need flutes that are more than around 22 to 25 inches tops. The flutes don't extend back to the chamber area after all. And while room is still needed for things like the indexing head and tail stock for the head nothing says that FOR HOBBY USE that table extensions can't be fabricated to allow the head and tail stock to sit outboard of the ends. So really the only issue FOR HOBBY USE is to ensure you have 24 or thereabouts travel in the table.

I could go on but I trust you guys see where I'm going. On the other hand if you're doing well enough financially that buying $12K to $15K worth of machine and tooling won't prevent you making a mortgage payment or force you to eat KD instead of real food for the next year then go for it. I'll just sit here and soak in my envy.... :D

And yes, I really like the idea of a BT-40 setup over R-8 for this size of machine.

Brewster, if you are serious about doing gunsmithing for pay then consider the legal liability issues. One gunsmith I know said his yearly liability insurance is up around $10K. You'd need to do a lot of serious gunsmithing to justify that cost. And given the legal climate I would not want to sell my services without such protection. I'm hoping to do some gunsmithing myself. But I've decided to limit it to wood working only and not do any work on actions or barrels in order to limit my liability to something more acceptable. With this in mind you might want to consider just doing it for yourself and your own projects over performing professional work for others. At least look into it before you commit yourself.

To LJN, that is a great job you did on the re-build. Again I'm sitting here exuding massive amounts of envy... :D
 
The 40K mill was a joke, A guy can dream right? I make a pretty good living doing what I currently do, I can afford the 12K. I do respect everyones advice, the thing is the machinists are thinking like machinist, not gunsmiths, I understand that the machine I picked is a toy compared to large scale machine shops making big parts for industry, all I need is something that can handle gun work. This 9x49 is massive compared to 99% of the ones I have seen in many "Gunsmith" shops I have been in. Probably all I will use it for is bedding jobs, inletting stocks, cutting dovetails, fluting barrels/bolts, maybe make some muzzle brakes, and whatever else. Small stuff. Not going to be going into competition with PTG anytime soon. That being said, I have 2 boys that are very interested in this stuff, they both want to go into machining/gunsmithing. I will send them to Nait for full machining/CNC techs and send to the US for Gunsmith school, they can live my dream and maybe someday I can sweep the floors in their shop :)
 
I get where you're coming from BCRider. I got mine for $1000 all in with lots of tooling and picked it up myself. Of course I've been offered $5000 for it since rebuilt, but no thanks.

TrxR, rebuilding one of these requires knowledge in scraping the ways for proper fit. It's knowledge I learned in a machine shop back in the 1970's.
Then you need a shop crane to tear apart the mill as the parts are heavy. In this particular mill, the ways were in decent shape as it sat it's whole life in a sheet metal shop since 1962 being a drill press for the most part. Some used ones are severely worn and require a lot more work to restore. I had to take the head apart also to fix some broken parts and get the down feed working again.

I did a lot of searching to find that one and many I saw in the US were worn badly. You have to know what to look for or find someone who does.

Heavy cuts will still make it chatter, so you have to know the limits of any machine.
 
SkytopBrewster said:
I hear you but you are in more of a MFG province, you don't see a lot of used machines for sale around here and if you do they are just too huge. Trust me, I have been looking for the last 3-4 years. At least this I can drive 1.5hrs and go pick it up. What am I supposed to do If I get some used machine from the US, have to ship it up here and find out it's NFG, then I am out 2-4K and stuck with a one ton pile of sh** to get rid of, that's my worry.
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I bought three used mills with DRO's form Ontario and had them shipped to me. I figured I would have at least one machine worst case. All three were good but I took the chance.
Regardless, if you have the coin for a new machine go for it.
These guys are NOT cheap and have a Taiwanese machine for $8950 with power feed but without the DRO [WRONG VOLTAGE in stock] It is made by Long Chang in Taiwan and called a First. http://www.fundygrinding.com/default.asp?mn=1.40.43&sfield=content.id&search=154
http://www.first.com.tw/e_lc-1.htm
My point is I would look for another source and ask for a Taiwan mill with a DRO and power feed and I bet you can find one for the same price.
KBC is usually more money
 
I agree with at least looking at a few other options. FIRST is definitely one of the more popular imported brands, and reasonably priced. There's better makes from other parts of the world but more $, I do like my Lagun though.
I can tell you that there is at least 1 particular model of lathe on that alberta dealers website that is not from the better manufacturer of that copy that they could have imported from.
 
I bought a used one for the first one. Was always disappointed with the loose feeling on everything. I have quite a bit of experience running a Bridgeport so really felt I knew where I personally wanted to be with one at home. Bought the Taiwanese Mod from KBC. Run a homemade converter for 3 phase. Old one was single phase and really won`t do a proper job. Nice to reverse the spindle while tapping. I have extensive CNC experience but am happy enough to hobby shop with my smithing work. If I was looking to make some serious money I might take it in that direction. Some of the stuff from China is awesome for the money other stuff is crap ..it is buyer beware. You will loose travel in X if you install a table feed without the extension. Good luck
 


You can make Actions and all the tooling required with little more than a small mill, small lathe, and a bit of imagination.
I do compete with these and they do work well.
 
Skytop, I figure you could get away with spending a bunch less money and still ending up with more of a mill (and tooling) than you need or are able to put to use, but if you can afford it, I say pick the one you like best and have a great time making chips and learning to run it.

Of the 3 kijiji mills posted, the Modern one is the only one I would drive across town to look at. The CNC is an obese antique, and aside from having the capability to suck your bank account dry the first time it breaks down (which it will, eventually), it will require more space and more power than most guys have. The First machine would be the second place by a long shot just on the voltage issues. I have used a few First knee mills and they were OK. I wasn't on the hook to fix them if they broke though, either. Again, thinking from the perspective as a Hobbyist, even if an advanced one, rather than as a guy trying to make a living at it. Unless you have some background in Industrial electrics, or are willing to learn on the fly, you don't need the headaches. Gotta decide if you want a hobby of rebuilding machine tools, or running them for your needs, too.

Spending the bosses money, when you are not making the actual payments out of your own bank account, is really easy, and nothing but the best will do, when it's being paid for by someone else!

What is needed or wanted in a job shop is different than what would be needed in a home one. Even if we all want nothing but the best! :)

Me, my 'perfect' manual mill is looking a lot like a Deckel FP2 or Schaublin 13 kind of unit, with a Schaublin 135 or 150 as a lathe to go with. Maybe a Wieler lathe. If I had to. :) I can dream. In the meantime, I get along alright with the small tools in my basement, and have a larger lathe and a CNC knee mill in storage until I can find my arse with both hands and organize a shop for them.

My experience has been that guys that have spent time running the lightweight lathes and mills seem to have a far easier time converting over to 'real' machine tools, but I have met a lot of guys that were flat out not able to adapt to running lighter machines than they had learned upon. When you need to make one part right, and not a hundred or more of the same part a day, you usually have the time to figure out how to work with what you have, no matter how much it gets poo-pooed by the peanut gallery.

Choosing how to spend one's own money, is a bloody miserable row to hoe! :) Try to sort out what best fits your needs.

Cheers
Trev
 
While nowhere near as common as verticals are today, don't ignore a quality used horizontal. I missed out on a bench top a few months back for $400 that came with what was easily over a grand in tooling. Even with a somewhat limited 24" of x travel it would have fluted 90% of all the barrels you'll ever work on with ease and run a ton of other very functional ops from serrating and flattening 1911 slides to slabbing bull barrels for revolvers. And at 400'ish pounds with a small profile it fits in most shops and stores out of the way fairly easily.

A good trick for shopping for used is to spam up WTB's all over the place. Alot of people will sit on an old machine because they think no one will want it and it's to much trouble to turf it. Give them the idea and you never know what will turn up.

Bridgeports are like Caprice's or F150's. There's been who know's how many models but overall they haven't changed much and parts are everywhere. Hardinge, Clausing, Rockwell, and a bunch of others are good choices to.

Which ever way you go you seem to be on the right track. You've got a solid budget and you're not looking for a combi. Looking forward to pics in the near future.
 
BCRider said:
There's a comment about 31 inches of travel being enough to do barrel flutes. I haven't seen many barrels that need flutes that are more than around 22 to 25 inches tops. The flutes don't extend back to the chamber area after all. And while room is still needed for things like the indexing head and tail stock for the head nothing says that FOR HOBBY USE that table extensions can't be fabricated to allow the head and tail stock to sit outboard of the ends. So really the only issue FOR HOBBY USE is to ensure you have 24 or thereabouts travel in the table.
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Once you get your rotary table/dividing head with a tailstock, you'll be lucky to get 18 out of your 31 inches of travel. Seeing as you can buy a larger used mill for the same price, I wouldn't be fabbing up bed extensions. The old adage, K.I.S.S. holds true here. Less things to move and bugger something up at the worst possible moment :)
 
At one point I had a Universal dividing head, a 8" vise, and a 12" rotary table all bolted up on the table of one of the mills at work, It was really nice to be able to walk up to it and plonk the work into whichever holder was appropriate without having to dink around installing it first.

A boss who thought that ALL workholding should be removed every night, even if it was required first thing the next morning, put an end to that. But it was pretty handy while it lasted!

Table space, spindle size, swing, and travels, all are about 'that' much too small, the first day after the machine is finally chosen and installed! That's how it all get's out of hand in a hurry! :)

Cheers
Trev
 
mwjones said:
Once you get your rotary table/dividing head with a tailstock, you'll be lucky to get 18 out of your 31 inches of travel. Seeing as you can buy a larger used mill for the same price, I wouldn't be fabbing up bed extensions. The old adage, K.I.S.S. holds true here. Less things to move and bugger something up at the worst possible moment :)
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Again we're talking about home machining for a hobby. For such use fabbing up bed extensions for something done only occasionally isn't that big a deal. The hobbyist doesn't need to justify the time like you folks doing it as a job have to do.

Also adding tooling to the table doesn't cut down the travel. I suspect you intended to say that the 30 inch table soon will barely hold an 18 inch barrel rather than that it would only move over 18 inches. And I agree that table area is nice to have. I'm not above the idea of paying a LITTLE more and going a LITTLE bigger to get more table real estate and table to spindle nose room. But this has to be tempered by the reality of the shop space and machine budget. A hobbyist isn't going to make much, if any, money from his machines. So it's not as easy to justify a really big machine at a much higher cost.

I'd say that we're both "right". You're right that bigger machines are great to have if the cost and size is within the budget and there's room in the shop. But I'd say I'm equally right in that a more moderate size machine can do the job even if it requires some fabbing up of table extentions. As I said it's not something that you'd consider in a shop where time is money. But for the hobbyist it's very much an option.

And we are still dealing with a prospective buyer that simply does not have the access to use machinery nor the knowledge and experience to evaluate a machine for condition in any event. For the OP with his skill level I feel he's better off buying new since at least the table and all the dovetail bedways will be in good condition.
 
You ARE right. Just about anything can be done with a little ingenuity. And yes, I should have said "effective" table travel once you have your tooling on. For what it's worth, while do work as a machinist, I haven't been really talking about production work. I make most fo my chips on a Sharp 13x36 lathe with electronic variable speed. Kinda light duty, and definitely what I would call a "hobby" machine, though most of the parts I run are pretty small. Additionally, it's a repair/overhaul shop where most of the machining is on thermal spray, so I rarely take more than .010 cuts. The only CNC machines we have are one medium sized slant bed lathe and a couple of 5 axis mills that are pretty new and don't get used nearly to their potential.

When it comes down to it, you're correct, it depends on what you've got. If I already had, say, a 16x20ft. garage, then yes, a smaller machine would be optimal. That small lathe I use at work would be great in a smaller building as long as you work within the limitations of the machine. I'm in the position where if I was to have a home shop, I'd need to put up a building first, and 20x40ft is probably the smallest I would go, and I'd rather pay 3/4 of the price for a decent used 16x60 lathe than a new 13x36.
 
KBC is not the place to buy machinery.
You could check what Heinman or Legere has to offer, I bought from both of them and they were good to deal with. But that involves shipping, dealing local maybe your dealer there would deliver and get it in place, not that its that big an issue to move machines, just gotta do it right.
 
I bought my machinery from Spence Distributors in Winnipeg. It's identical to the Grizzly machines but with a different name , although they don't have the gunsmith models. Some day I might even get good at using them to their potential. I bought a 16x40 lathe and a 9x49 step pulley knee mill. They've done everything I need very well.
 
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