Milsurp collecting
- Thread starter kjohn
- Start date
enough said
Actually I was enjoying the stories...
I'm a relatively new collector. Most of what I know I learned here. I appreciate the help that I have received from everyone. This is the best section of this forum for camaraderie. I've been spoken to a couple times in CAPITOL LETTERS by a couple of old farts when I said something stupid.
But I know it was out of love for the rifles, the men that used them, and what was accomplished. I prefer to seek out rifles locally. It's a lot more fun that using the EE and gun shops. I've met some great guys and I think a lot of older guys enjoy seeing sincere interest in their prized rifles.
It has also spawned an interest in military history that I'm really enjoying as well.
Something that comes to mind that some maybe haven't contemplated, is that the 20 yr. old milsurp that guys like me bought in 1965 for x$ is now almost 70 years old. The rifle back then maybe didn't have the historical significance it does now. Things may have changed drastically with regards to its country of origin, or where it might have been sent to. Take Germany, for example: A WWII German rifle likely came from a Nazi dominated country. In the time since, Germany has been broken up, then reunited. Many other countries have changed.
We live in exciting times. Milsurp collectors are riding a great wave of the results of painstaking research and generous sharing of the information. Forums like this one have further enhanced the interest.
Thankfully, the rush to "sporterize" these old gem has somewhat subsided, although on some forums in the US are full of post showing D&T'd 1941 Portugese, 1908 Brazil, 1909 Argentine and Peruvian rifles.
A word to all the young whippersnappers who read my drivel - guard our right to buy and possess these rifles. The generation before me sent many of its young men into hell. Those people were the greatest generation. My generation grew up in the aftermath. I look at my Lee Enfields and I think of my older cousin, Gordon Irvine. I showed him my old Churchill No.1 Mk3. He said, "Yeah, I know all about them Go$$am#d things. I carried one all across Europe!" I've never forgotten those words. Gordie, you made a lasting impression on the world by fighting for its freedom, and a lasting impression on me, by reminding me of your sacrifice.
We live in exciting times. Milsurp collectors are riding a great wave of the results of painstaking research and generous sharing of the information. Forums like this one have further enhanced the interest.
Thankfully, the rush to "sporterize" these old gem has somewhat subsided, although on some forums in the US are full of post showing D&T'd 1941 Portugese, 1908 Brazil, 1909 Argentine and Peruvian rifles.
A word to all the young whippersnappers who read my drivel - guard our right to buy and possess these rifles. The generation before me sent many of its young men into hell. Those people were the greatest generation. My generation grew up in the aftermath. I look at my Lee Enfields and I think of my older cousin, Gordon Irvine. I showed him my old Churchill No.1 Mk3. He said, "Yeah, I know all about them Go$$am#d things. I carried one all across Europe!" I've never forgotten those words. Gordie, you made a lasting impression on the world by fighting for its freedom, and a lasting impression on me, by reminding me of your sacrifice.
I'm definitely on the younger side of gun collecting (late 20s), but I had the good fortune to get into it young and I've been doing it for over 10 years now - long enough to amass a quite decent collection while I still had the financial freedom / lack of responsibility to do it. Now that I'm older with a mortgage and bills to pay I unfortunately won't be able to invest as much into it as I used to.
Funnily enough I remember the time just after registration came into effect as the best time to be buying guns in my collecting lifetime - so many people sold off all their guns because of it I remember the used rack at SIR in Winnipeg usually having at least a half-dozen old milsurps on it, and pretty well priced at that! To say nothing of going to Pro Line Shooters and Calgary having my pick of a few dozen on the floor because the rack begind the counter was full. Now over the last 10+ years I've watched the prices on most milsurps double and then triple from what they were when I started, and see fewer of them on display. I also see more and more people of my and younger generations buying milsurp, which I attribute mainly to Call of Duty and similar games.
I think new collectors of my generation have a huge advantage in the wealth of information available on the internet - it doesn't replace books but certainly suplements them, as well as having a much larger marketplace at their fingertips. I see more and more good resources online available for the "serious" milsurp collector - the trick is learning to tell the wheat from the chaff. Now don't get me wrong, I still think there's no substitute for hands-on experience and learning from guys who've been at it for years if not decades, but I think now it's much easier to become a knowledgeable collector than in the past.
Funnily enough I remember the time just after registration came into effect as the best time to be buying guns in my collecting lifetime - so many people sold off all their guns because of it I remember the used rack at SIR in Winnipeg usually having at least a half-dozen old milsurps on it, and pretty well priced at that! To say nothing of going to Pro Line Shooters and Calgary having my pick of a few dozen on the floor because the rack begind the counter was full. Now over the last 10+ years I've watched the prices on most milsurps double and then triple from what they were when I started, and see fewer of them on display. I also see more and more people of my and younger generations buying milsurp, which I attribute mainly to Call of Duty and similar games.
I think new collectors of my generation have a huge advantage in the wealth of information available on the internet - it doesn't replace books but certainly suplements them, as well as having a much larger marketplace at their fingertips. I see more and more good resources online available for the "serious" milsurp collector - the trick is learning to tell the wheat from the chaff. Now don't get me wrong, I still think there's no substitute for hands-on experience and learning from guys who've been at it for years if not decades, but I think now it's much easier to become a knowledgeable collector than in the past.
Nyles: Good for you. I speak strictly for my self when I say that just because I have been "collecting" for 50+ years, it doesn't necessarily mean I know much about milsurps. I mucked along before the net by reading what books I could gather up. It is an entirely different situation now. These days, at least for anyone with access to the internet and a half-a$$ed interest in learning how to use it to advantage, all you need to do is saunter over to the computer, key in a few words in Google or whatever search engine you use, and - PRESTO - 37 choices, right off the bat. Then you have walking encyclopedias like smellie, buffdog, cantom, and many others, who are willing to share their knowledge and experience. It's absolutely great!!
My first Milsurp was a collector pack of 8 Mosin Nagant 1891`s from Century when they were still in Montreal. It was one from every factory that made them. I still have a rare Swiss barreled one mad for Finland that they only made 2500 of. That was back in 1984 or so I think, and my dad had to let me send off his FAC as I was still too young. They were only $34.00 each if I remember correctly.
The problem, kjohn, was that when you and I started into this, there WERE no books the way there are today.
There were a FEW books, but not many. "Small Arms of the World" only first came out as an Intelligence manual in 1944. It was updated from time to time and was the ONLY reference bookfor just about anything not made-in-USA. But 15 bucks....... for a BOOK? CRAZY price! We were working for 50 cents a hour at best and, if there was no time to cook your lunch, you went to a restaurant: burger, fries and coleslaw, coffee and a slice of pie was 55 or 60 cents, more than your hour's work and then there were taxes to be paid. Smokes were 38 cents for a 25-pack but then it went up to 41 cents. Gas was 39 or 40 cents a gallon and you didn't waste it. Box of 8mm Mauser was $5.25 at the hardware store and that was the reason that my first Mauser was a Kar 71: shells were only $3.65 and, at that price, you didn't waste them. This is the reason that so many old .25 Remingtons and .25-35 Winchesters and .30 Remingtons have such nice barrels, even aftr standing uncleaned for 60 years: ammo cost too much, so they were hardly ever shot.
There was W.H.B. Smth's BOOK OF RIFLES, published by the NRA and it was a good, solid book and well-made. But it was over $5 here.
When Fred Datig published "Pistole Parabellum", the first book in English on the Luger, the early copies did not look good at all. The reason was that Datig put it together out of his own pocket and could not afford a good-looking book. I have the SECOND edition and it is much better. Same thing happened more recently with THE ROSS RIFLE STORY: published privately because no "respectable" publisher would take a chance on a GUN BOOK. So it was cobbled together and the first edition printed on a small shop-press on 2 o 3 different kinds of paper (none of which were designed for photo reproduction: cast-coated paper just cost too much. The edition available now (if you can find it) is a FAR better printing job and, compared to the other junk out there, likely it is WORTH ninety bucks. Peter Labbett, arguably the 20th Century's Ultimate Authority on ammunition development, published MANY of his authoritative works as very tiny limited editions..... because he had to do it out of his pension. EVEN Arms and Armour Press would not touch some of this smaller books..... and look at the truly Gawd-awful PRICES on some of them today!!! If Peter could have gotten a TENTH of that out of them, he would have been a rich man!
What we had were, basically:
the GOLDEN STATE ARMS catalog, 1955
the BANNERMAN catalog (which cost a dollar, postage paid)
Smith's BOOK OF RIFLES
HATCHER'S NOTEBOOK (STILL one of the best that money can buy!)
SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD....... if you could save up enough to get it.
the monthly American gun magazines, the best of which were the NRA Rifleman, followed by THE GUN REPORT, GUNS & AMMO, SHOOTING TIMES, GUN WORLD and from there on, the quality seems to have dropped off almost to zero.
And that was IT. Datig's PISTOLE PARABELLUM cost almost as much as I PAID for my first Luger!
So all we could do was talk to people. You and I were lucky in that we were listening at the right time. I learned bit about Mauser stocks by watching and listening to a guy who had built sniping rifles for Uncle Adolf after he had stopped building them for Admiral Horthy. I learned a bit about operating Lee-Enfields from guys who had used them in combat, more about precision SHOOTING with them from Bill Brown, who had Captained the Canadian Bisley Team and was a local, thankfully. I was lucky in that there was an older fellow in this town, Gerry Brown, who knew something about non-Lee-Enfields and was willing to talk to a kid who knew nothing but wanted to learn. Reynolds' book came out in 1960 and was the first book devoted to a single non-American historic rifle. It was hard to get, had to be ordered specially, and the supply was limited, even after the small reprint.
So I make mistakes. I made a LOT of mistakes.
I still do, too: made one on this forum, yesterday, got set straight by Claven2, who has a lot more experience than I have with Japanese rifles. And he was gracious enough not to call me a damfool for my post!
Nobody can know EVERYTHING.
But this Internet thingie makes it so VERY much easier to contact people who DO know.
And that is the huge ADVANTAGE that the beginning collectors have over us: the simple EASE of gaining the information which they need.
The unfortunate part is that BUBBA (like Satan and Count Dracula) seems to be EVERYWHERE, which means that we ALL now must keep our oil hot and our stakes sharp!
Good collecting, guys!
There were a FEW books, but not many. "Small Arms of the World" only first came out as an Intelligence manual in 1944. It was updated from time to time and was the ONLY reference bookfor just about anything not made-in-USA. But 15 bucks....... for a BOOK? CRAZY price! We were working for 50 cents a hour at best and, if there was no time to cook your lunch, you went to a restaurant: burger, fries and coleslaw, coffee and a slice of pie was 55 or 60 cents, more than your hour's work and then there were taxes to be paid. Smokes were 38 cents for a 25-pack but then it went up to 41 cents. Gas was 39 or 40 cents a gallon and you didn't waste it. Box of 8mm Mauser was $5.25 at the hardware store and that was the reason that my first Mauser was a Kar 71: shells were only $3.65 and, at that price, you didn't waste them. This is the reason that so many old .25 Remingtons and .25-35 Winchesters and .30 Remingtons have such nice barrels, even aftr standing uncleaned for 60 years: ammo cost too much, so they were hardly ever shot.
There was W.H.B. Smth's BOOK OF RIFLES, published by the NRA and it was a good, solid book and well-made. But it was over $5 here.
When Fred Datig published "Pistole Parabellum", the first book in English on the Luger, the early copies did not look good at all. The reason was that Datig put it together out of his own pocket and could not afford a good-looking book. I have the SECOND edition and it is much better. Same thing happened more recently with THE ROSS RIFLE STORY: published privately because no "respectable" publisher would take a chance on a GUN BOOK. So it was cobbled together and the first edition printed on a small shop-press on 2 o 3 different kinds of paper (none of which were designed for photo reproduction: cast-coated paper just cost too much. The edition available now (if you can find it) is a FAR better printing job and, compared to the other junk out there, likely it is WORTH ninety bucks. Peter Labbett, arguably the 20th Century's Ultimate Authority on ammunition development, published MANY of his authoritative works as very tiny limited editions..... because he had to do it out of his pension. EVEN Arms and Armour Press would not touch some of this smaller books..... and look at the truly Gawd-awful PRICES on some of them today!!! If Peter could have gotten a TENTH of that out of them, he would have been a rich man!
What we had were, basically:
the GOLDEN STATE ARMS catalog, 1955
the BANNERMAN catalog (which cost a dollar, postage paid)
Smith's BOOK OF RIFLES
HATCHER'S NOTEBOOK (STILL one of the best that money can buy!)
SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD....... if you could save up enough to get it.
the monthly American gun magazines, the best of which were the NRA Rifleman, followed by THE GUN REPORT, GUNS & AMMO, SHOOTING TIMES, GUN WORLD and from there on, the quality seems to have dropped off almost to zero.
And that was IT. Datig's PISTOLE PARABELLUM cost almost as much as I PAID for my first Luger!
So all we could do was talk to people. You and I were lucky in that we were listening at the right time. I learned bit about Mauser stocks by watching and listening to a guy who had built sniping rifles for Uncle Adolf after he had stopped building them for Admiral Horthy. I learned a bit about operating Lee-Enfields from guys who had used them in combat, more about precision SHOOTING with them from Bill Brown, who had Captained the Canadian Bisley Team and was a local, thankfully. I was lucky in that there was an older fellow in this town, Gerry Brown, who knew something about non-Lee-Enfields and was willing to talk to a kid who knew nothing but wanted to learn. Reynolds' book came out in 1960 and was the first book devoted to a single non-American historic rifle. It was hard to get, had to be ordered specially, and the supply was limited, even after the small reprint.
So I make mistakes. I made a LOT of mistakes.
I still do, too: made one on this forum, yesterday, got set straight by Claven2, who has a lot more experience than I have with Japanese rifles. And he was gracious enough not to call me a damfool for my post!
Nobody can know EVERYTHING.
But this Internet thingie makes it so VERY much easier to contact people who DO know.
And that is the huge ADVANTAGE that the beginning collectors have over us: the simple EASE of gaining the information which they need.
The unfortunate part is that BUBBA (like Satan and Count Dracula) seems to be EVERYWHERE, which means that we ALL now must keep our oil hot and our stakes sharp!
Good collecting, guys!
well...a ray of hope for you ol timers
There are people like myself...and much younger...who still have an appreciation and respect for those before us who have fought, died, survived and endeavoured to ensure our freedoms...
These same people are now getting into collecting for the love and respect for the history that these firearms are born from, and for me at least...it's not about turning a profit. I just want to get my hands on..literally..a piece of MY history..my dads history, and his father. Something I can feel the weight of, the smell, shoulder it, feel the action...maybe pull the trigger and hear the report...and then feel connected to the history.
That's why I'm in it
and since somebody asked for pics..here's a brand newb's collection since October...be nice to the new guy, lol
ps: if you guys think it ruins this great discussion I'm more than happy to remove these pics...I'm enjoying the advice and stories, don't want it to become a pic thread
There are people like myself...and much younger...who still have an appreciation and respect for those before us who have fought, died, survived and endeavoured to ensure our freedoms...
These same people are now getting into collecting for the love and respect for the history that these firearms are born from, and for me at least...it's not about turning a profit. I just want to get my hands on..literally..a piece of MY history..my dads history, and his father. Something I can feel the weight of, the smell, shoulder it, feel the action...maybe pull the trigger and hear the report...and then feel connected to the history.
That's why I'm in it
and since somebody asked for pics..here's a brand newb's collection since October...be nice to the new guy, lol
ps: if you guys think it ruins this great discussion I'm more than happy to remove these pics...I'm enjoying the advice and stories, don't want it to become a pic thread
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You have a really nice start there, VERMINTREX!
My Garand is a little more beat-up than yours and my 98k has different chickens but, otherwise, is in pretty much the same condition.
The SKS is absolutely necessary, of course: it was the main Soviet rifle for the first 10 years of the Cold War.
Thankfully that one never heated up TOO much, although things did get warm at times.
Great start!
My Garand is a little more beat-up than yours and my 98k has different chickens but, otherwise, is in pretty much the same condition.
The SKS is absolutely necessary, of course: it was the main Soviet rifle for the first 10 years of the Cold War.
Thankfully that one never heated up TOO much, although things did get warm at times.
Great start!
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
I'm 27 years old.
Milsurps are my favorite guns. Specifically Russian mislurps with iron sights.
I don't collect them though.
I shoot them.
I own a very nice SVT40 with AVT Naval stock, an M44 with a mint bore and a TT33. One of each.
I know them inside and out, every part and piece. I've read every bit of literature and every translated manual I can find on them. I can handle them very confidently and shoot them very well.
They are my favorites and I shoot them probably less than 10 times a year and I clean them meticulously.
Far from a collector I guess, much more of a milsurp enthusiast I suppose.
I love the history, the designs, the simple ingenious mechanics, the backround stories of how they came to be almost as much I like to hear them roar again
Milsurps are my favorite guns. Specifically Russian mislurps with iron sights.
I don't collect them though.
I shoot them.
I own a very nice SVT40 with AVT Naval stock, an M44 with a mint bore and a TT33. One of each.
I know them inside and out, every part and piece. I've read every bit of literature and every translated manual I can find on them. I can handle them very confidently and shoot them very well.
They are my favorites and I shoot them probably less than 10 times a year and I clean them meticulously.
Far from a collector I guess, much more of a milsurp enthusiast I suppose.
I love the history, the designs, the simple ingenious mechanics, the backround stories of how they came to be almost as much I like to hear them roar again
Either one becomes a collector or a shooter ….or both.
There is a difference... and it often translates into the guns that you purchase.
Some collectors will rarely shoot the best examples that they have. (If ever.)
Others will shoot everything that they have.
It becomes a personal decision. There is not a right or wrong.
As has been said before, become familiar with what the best condition ‘correct’ guns look like so when you are at a gun show (or elsewhere) you already have a sense of what it should look like.
Personally, I save photos of guns that are in excellent condition in order to compare whatever I may run across to the way they should look.
I have found that the guys that write the books very accessible and in a number of situations I have sent them photos for their opinion before I committed myself to buy.
Don’t be afraid to ask the experts…they all started at the beginning…and they are usually more than happy to share their expertise.
This is not always possible when you have to make a decision quickly.
In a perfect world one decides on a collecting path/theme and sticks to it.
This perfect world unfortunately can become a moving target as time passes.
Be careful of impulse buying when you are looking at something that you know nothing about.
We all make mistakes along the way…..ideally…the fewer..the better.
Learn how to take good photos of your guns….photography has become an important part of collecting in the Internet age.
When it comes time to sell a piece …..sh.itty photos will not help you.
Just a few thoughts.
David
There is a difference... and it often translates into the guns that you purchase.
Some collectors will rarely shoot the best examples that they have. (If ever.)
Others will shoot everything that they have.
It becomes a personal decision. There is not a right or wrong.
As has been said before, become familiar with what the best condition ‘correct’ guns look like so when you are at a gun show (or elsewhere) you already have a sense of what it should look like.
Personally, I save photos of guns that are in excellent condition in order to compare whatever I may run across to the way they should look.
I have found that the guys that write the books very accessible and in a number of situations I have sent them photos for their opinion before I committed myself to buy.
Don’t be afraid to ask the experts…they all started at the beginning…and they are usually more than happy to share their expertise.
This is not always possible when you have to make a decision quickly.
In a perfect world one decides on a collecting path/theme and sticks to it.
This perfect world unfortunately can become a moving target as time passes.
Be careful of impulse buying when you are looking at something that you know nothing about.
We all make mistakes along the way…..ideally…the fewer..the better.
Learn how to take good photos of your guns….photography has become an important part of collecting in the Internet age.
When it comes time to sell a piece …..sh.itty photos will not help you.
Just a few thoughts.
David
thanks much Smellie !
The K98 was a total impulse purchase, I really didn't do a ton of research before I bought it. I hope it's more than a beater but I'm not sure. It's very numbers mismatched, so far I can only see that the barrel bands match and the barrel and breech are stamped the same. The bolt has a different number on every part. Also the floor plate and trigger guard have electropenciled matching numbers, did the Germans use this method when they refurb a firearm ? The seller claimed it's not a russian capture but I wonder about the electropencil. Did K98's come with laminate stocks original, or is that part of the refurb process too ?
lol....so many questions...
The Garand is beautiful...and I really like it, but I know it's a restored firearm and not really a "legit" collectable, but I'm going to enjoy it for what it is...an almost "off the assembly line" M1
ugh...now I want a No.1 MkIII so bad lol.....if I buy one more firearm before the holidays are over my wife is gonna do something worse than kill me !
Anyway...even though I'm new here, I already love the wealth of knowledge you guys are willing to share and the stories...the stories are awesome !
so true...and if you read my post above you'll see I may have jumped to soon with too little knowledge. i have tons more pics of the K98 if anyone cared to have a look and give their take on what I've got.
I'm having a blast reading this thread!!! It's so great to hear all of the storys and why we all collect. I'm drawn to the history of these old guns, every time I pull the trigger its like going back in time. Also the mechanics of it all, they all do the same things but most have a different way of doing it! As a tradesperson I really appreciate the old world crafsmanship of an old rifle.
I wasn't out to collect milsurps when I got my pal this summer, then my friend brought over his new greasy SKS. I'd never seen or shot an SKS but once I took that first shot I was hooked!
Now 1/2 a year later my little collection is growing! Planning to add a schmit Ruben, carcano, and a Mauser for sure in the near future!
Here's the collection, just took this picture tonight as my brother stopped by to pick his sks up. Starting left 1916 Ross m1910, 1916 Austrailian no.1 mk.3 Sporter, my brother's 1944 Tula Sks, my 1955 Tula Sks.
I wasn't out to collect milsurps when I got my pal this summer, then my friend brought over his new greasy SKS. I'd never seen or shot an SKS but once I took that first shot I was hooked!
Now 1/2 a year later my little collection is growing! Planning to add a schmit Ruben, carcano, and a Mauser for sure in the near future!
Here's the collection, just took this picture tonight as my brother stopped by to pick his sks up. Starting left 1916 Ross m1910, 1916 Austrailian no.1 mk.3 Sporter, my brother's 1944 Tula Sks, my 1955 Tula Sks.
I just learned on a more specialized forum that I probably got taken for a walk...but not a complete fleecing.
The K98k is a complete rebuild of extra parts...thankfully all the metal bits are german...the bolt is Mauser but made of just about every mismatched part they could find...the stock is almost definitely a Norwegian capture.
I now feel somewhat attached to this rifle.....I've learned my lesson, but I'm going to think of all these mismatched parts as bringing their own little piece of history with them. I have to imagine at least one part has seen something horrific, courageous, tragic or noble........I think I'm keeping it.
love this stuff.....history is cool !!
The K98k is a complete rebuild of extra parts...thankfully all the metal bits are german...the bolt is Mauser but made of just about every mismatched part they could find...the stock is almost definitely a Norwegian capture.
I now feel somewhat attached to this rifle.....I've learned my lesson, but I'm going to think of all these mismatched parts as bringing their own little piece of history with them. I have to imagine at least one part has seen something horrific, courageous, tragic or noble........I think I'm keeping it.
love this stuff.....history is cool !!
