Milsurp Experts Please Comment

effinggoof

effinggoof

BANNED
BANNED
BANNED
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
9   0   1
Location
Fraser Valley BC
This article was posted on another board I frequent. I thought that I would post it here, since people will actually be able to make an informed commentary.

Without delving into the whole conspiracy theory, is the commentary on the general craptastic nature of the rifle/scope combo correct?

tp://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE3DD1430F931A35750C0A964958260

In 60's, They Missed Assassination Evidence; Cheap, Unreliable Rifle



Published: March 2, 1992

To the Editor:

William Manchester (letter, Feb. 5) announces: "I needed no authority to assess Lee Harvey Oswald's marksmanship. As a World War II Marine, I had qualified as an expert rifleman on the Parris Island, S.C., range. Oswald, a former Marine, had also qualified."

Now these sentences convey the impression, no doubt intended, that Oswald qualified as an expert rifleman. Evidence in the Warren Report, however, shows that Oswald barely qualified as a marksman, the lowest of the three Marine classifications of expert, sharpshooter and marksman. He scored 191 on a scale of 190 to 250.

Witnesses to Oswald's prowess on the firing range testified that his frequency of "Maggie's drawers" (complete misses of the entire target) was something of a joke. Oswald was a poor shot, and Mr. Manchester risks his credibility to pretend otherwise.

Mr. Manchester continues: "In Dallas he was equipped with a bolt-action, clip-fed, 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle and a four-power telescopic sight. His target -- the Presidential limousine -- was only 88 yards away from his sniper's nest. At that distance, with that scope, a trained marksman could scarcely miss."

The Mannlicher-Carcano was a cheap, old, unreliable make, known in the Italian Army as the "humanitarian rifle," on the ground that it could not hurt anyone on purpose. It was testified that the scope on the rifle was mounted for a left-handed user. Oswald was right-handed. Also, the sights were misaligned, and shims had to be inserted to aim properly.

The Warren Commission conducted simulated test firings, a pointless exercise as they took place after corrective adjustments of the scope and sights. Even so, none of the Olympic-class Army riflemen who participated in the tests were able to duplicate the alleged feat of Oswald in firing so rapidly and accurately.

Proponents of the Warren Commission have never clearly explained how it reached conclusions contrary to so much of the evidence it itself assembled. HUDSON HATCHER Bronxville, N.Y., Feb. 15, 1992 The writer qualified as an expert on the M1 rifle in the Army.
Click to expand...
 
Well, the bits about the Carcano being a crappy rifle aren't true. Granted, they're not as nice as a Mauser or Lee-Enfield, but they're a perfectly servicable weapon.
 
Awwwwww....not this s**t again.........

The Carcano was a perfectly serviceable and adequately accurate military rifle well suited to the job of killing enemy troops, and yes, putting rounds into JFK's bonce in Dallas. Likewise, the 6.5 Carcano round was well up to it's intended task.
 
The summary of the Carcano in this letter sounds an awful lot like the prevailing attitude towards milsurp rifles back at the time that the Kennedy assasination took place. With the possible exception of the 1903 Springfields (that were all too often sporterized with abandon), it seems as though most milsurps, and especially those in odd European calibers were dismissed as substandard for the well equipped sportsman.

As an example, I have a copy of "The Gunner's Bible" on my bookshelf that touches upon military surplus rifles in one section of the book. It essentially says that they mostly come in oddball calibers, have poor sights and excess hardware that makes them weigh too much. They suggest the possibility of sporterizing with the caveat that when properly done, it would make the rifle cost more than a new commercial model. The book provides two examples of a Springfield and an 1895 Winchester (Russian Army Issue) that were extensively modified.

Similarly, Williams Gunsights printed a manual at about the same time that left the reader with the impression that as issued milsurps were guns of a lesser grade.

While the Carcano is hardly the most beloved of milsurps (in large part because of the lack of ammunition or even bullets in the proper calibre for reloading), the claims of the author of the enclosed letter are greatly exaggerated.

Cheers,

Frank
 
Plus, even a bad shot can get lucky... I assume the scope was offset to one side as the mannlicher magazine uses clips that have to be inserted from the top... I don't believe that "the scope on the rifle was mounted for a left-handed user"... It was just mounted the only way it could be on such a rifle not designed to sport a scope...
 
Actually I read that Oswald was in fact left handed, the argument against him being the only shooter used to be that a lefty couldn't fire a right handed bolt gun that quickly. ('Til someone showed them how)
 
So how in the hell could the Carcano be set up with a scope for a lefty(?) - the only way to mount a scope on there is to offset it to the left of the receiver :confused: - you can't put it above the action because you won't get the clips in there - unless you want a single shot. You can't put it on the right side of the receiver for obvious reasons. Me thinks whoever wrote that article is full of prunes. :rolleyes:
 
Carcano_Cartoon.jpg
 
Lets remind the author that the Garand was also offset and it performed admirably

The author should be reminded that the old battle horse the M! garand also used a heavily offset scope to make room to the enbloc clip to be inserted.

Cannot comment on the fact that lefties and righties used the garand scoped rifle except for the fact that bolt manipulation was not a requirement for the scoped garand shooter.

Conspiracies aside, I believe that Oswald may well have gotten a few lucky shots off as the distances were not all that long considering he had some fairly professional shooting/marksmanship training.

Having said that though --I have to admit that there are unresolved ballistic evidence that may well support the second or third shooter conspiracy theory.

The mystery continues.
As to the scope being off, who can say just how solid the sported conversion was. possibly he threw or dropped the rifle in hiding it behind the cardboard boxes prior to exiting the building.

The mystery continues

Cheers
Terry in Victoria
Terry
 
The Mannlicher-Carcano was a cheap, old, unreliable make, known in the Italian Army as the "humanitarian rifle," on the ground that it could not hurt anyone on purpose.
Click to expand...

:bsFlag:


:slap::slap:


The last thing going through Kennedy's mind was a Carcano slug!

If this was the case, how would the author feel about the 5.56?
 
The Carcano is the Rodney Dangerfield of military arms. It don't get no respect.
When American gun writers in the 50s evaluated foreign arms they compared them to that "perfect rifle and ctg the 30-06" and judged them on how readily they could be sportrised into a 30-06 or 270.
 
One thing not taken into consideration was that oswald was firing DOWNHILL at a moving target. (Deer hunters should know how one can misjudge the angle) Any tests taken later, were on a level, firing at a fixed target. Yes the carcano is a serviceable, albiet a FUGLY rifle, but an expert marksman he was NOT. It is a FACT that he did not even take the rifle to the range to zero the scope or for that matter practice with it.
I also find it odd that in a matter of hours, Oswald was discovered and arrested in a darkened movie theatre while it took days to figure out who shot MLK,
Then there was the odd fact that the records from the hospital where Kennedy was initialy taken, mysteriously disappeared and have not been found to this day.

Perhaps the warren report was inded correect but there is a ceretain odious smell about it.
 
"...the Presidential limousine -- was only..." And moving. After 45 years, if Oswald was alone, he made three miraculous shots.
 
While having not actually fired a Carcano, I have handled several and found them to be a very servicable rifle. The rifle balances well, the bolt takes a bit of getting used to but no more than a Nagant or a Mauser. Some I have played with were fitted with double set triggers, quite an interesting rifle. The bolt and enblock clip will even handle 7.62 x 39 quite readily, always thought that would be a nice project gun....

Scott
 
Last edited:
According to the assassination tapes ,there were four shots heard on the audio portion of the tapes.
Two shots hit Kennedy,one that went in his back and exited his throat. The other was the headshot.
So if Oswald fired all four rounds,that means he only got two hits....50% hit ratio,this would support the facts about him not being the best shot.
They found three empty rounds in the Depository building,perhaps one of the rounds fell out the window as he was cycling the Carcano. Maybe someone in dallas has a 6.5 casing sitting on the shelf over the fireplace.
Anyway you slice it,Oswald did it.
Whether he had help,we will probably never know.
I heard the records are going to be made available in 2039,be sure that it will still have the same blab as what we have been hearing for 45 years.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom