Milsurp Help - K31 and Lee Enfield 303

SteelCityCoach

SteelCityCoach

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Hello,

I am thinking about picking up a couple milsurps and am looking for some input/assistance from those more in the know.

First up is a K31:

1. What is the difference between K31/K1911r/K1911c?

I already searched the thread and didn't find anything with respect to the r and c.



Next is a Lee Enfield 303 British:

1. What should I stay away from/what should I look for? (not sure of the model other than that as that is all I have seen listed)


With reference to both of the above, other than are the numbers matching and has it been modified in any way, what should I be asking?

Any and all input/comments are appreciated....thank you kindly for your time,

Coach
 
There is a 1911 Rifle and Carbine. Different lengths. The K31 came later. Same length as the 1911 carbine but longer barrel and better sight length.

Get an enfield you like the looks of and is in good shape. Tons to choose from.
 
The two most common models of the Lee Enfield are the No.1 MK III(primarily used during WWI, still saw use and mfg in ww2) and the No.4 MK1(used in WWII). Easiest way to tell the two apart is the No.1 has a nose cap and the rear sight is forward of the action while the No.4 has about 1.5-2" of exposed barrel at the muzzle end with a couple of milled lugs for the bayonet and the rear sight is located at the rear of the action. Basically what I look for when buying Lee Enfield's is a good bore with strong rifling and On the No.4's you can also get a rough idea about how worn the rifle is by the bolt head number as they were "interchangeable" coming in 3 different lengths of 0,1,2,3, 0 being the shortest and could be considered as having little to no wear, and 3 being the longest and at that point the rifle would have seen significant use and was nearing the end of its service life. The other question you should be asking is it full military configuration or has it been sporterized (stock cut down and is some cases barrel as well) that will also effect the value of the rifle, other than that I just look at the overall condition.
 
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Lucite,

Thank you kindly for taking the time to post that helpful info....it is appreciated.

Coach


Lucite said:
The two most common models of the Lee Enfield are the No.1 MK III(primarily used during WWI, still saw use and mfg in ww2) and the No.4 MK1(used in WWII). Easiest way to tell the two apart is the No.1 has a nose cap and the rear sight is forward of the action while the No.4 has about 1.5-2" of exposed barrel at the muzzle end with a couple of milled lugs for the bayonet and the rear sight is located at the rear of the action. Basically what I look for when buying Lee Enfield's is a good bore with strong rifling and On the No.4's you can also get a rough idea about how worn the rifle is by the bolt head number as they were "interchangeable" coming in 3 different lengths of 0,1,2,3, 0 being the shortest and could be considered as having little to no wear, and 3 being the longest and at that point the rifle would have seen significant use and was nearing the end of its service life. The other question you should be asking is it full military configuration or has it been sporterized (stock cut down and is some cases barrel as well) that will also effect the value of the rifle, other than that I just look at the overall condition.
Click to expand...
 
For the Swiss rifles I would recommend a K31 as the first one as the sights start at 100m vs the 1911 models that start at 300m. Also K1911(r) and K1911(c) is poor wording by companies that don't actually know what they are selling. K in the K1911 stands for Karabiner aka Carbine in German. The (r) I imagine refers to rifle (i.e. the long one) but in reality it should be G1911 (G standing for Gewehr, kinda like the Gewehr 98 and Karabiner 98). All the Swiss rifles are good/excellent overall but a K31 is still my recommendation as a first one (my other ones don't get much time at the range, they are more safe queens than anything else).
 
SteelCity: With Lee Enfields you also have to be concerned about the condition of the forend if you want to shoot it. Being a two piece stock set-up it requires specific knowledge. Of my latest purchases probably one in three has serious forend problems that required repair. Shooting one with poor fit at the draws or other issues can ruin a forend. Before you buy one do some reading about the method of stocking up. If looking at one in person you can look for a tight fit of rear of forend against "cheeks" of the butt-socket- usually a good sign but not conclusive. You won't really know until you remove the trigger guard how well it all fits together. With a No.4 look for a bit of pressure on the underside of the tip of the barrel being needed to lift it up off the tip of the forend- also a good sign. If you're looking for a piece as a collectors item look for wood that matches the metal in apparent state of wear. There are a great many de-sporterized ones floating around now with prsitine wood, often on a heavily worn barrel/ action. "Fully matching" on a No. 1 rifle includes a serial on the forend as well as action-body ring/ barrel reinforce/ rear sight leaf/ nosecap and, of course, bolt. An original matching bolt is a good thing as the proofing process settles the bolt lugs into the shoulders in the body. They are a very robust, safe design and, truthfully, I have yet to run into one that didn't shoot pretty well regardless of wear. Lots of fun to own and shoot and, of course, a great history behind them.

milsurpo
 
If they only list 'Lee Enfield 303 British', you need to know what model and if it has been sporterised. Affects the value and what else may need doing. As in a sporterised rifle you may want to restore, the barrel length matters. 25" isn't cut.
Ask for proof of good headspace on any Lee-Enfield, but especially if you opt for a No. 1 Mk III. Like Lucite says, No. 4 Rifle bolt heads are numbered and sometimes just going up one can fix bad headspace. Operative word being 'can' as in 'might' and if the bolt head is a 3 you're toast. All assuming you can find the number you need at roughly $20 each. On a No. 1 you need a handful of bolt heads at about $22 each(Marstar says send a measurement. Not as easy as they imply. Headspace gauges measure nothing. They're G0/No-Go gauges only) to check with proper headspace gauges(no empty cases, live rounds, bits of tape or anything else.) until you find one that gives correct headspace.
 
Get a K31 pre 47 with walnut stock and a nice 1950 Longbranch Enfield No4, you will not regret your purchase in the future.
 
Eaglelord.....thank you for your input.

Coach


Eaglelord17 said:
For the Swiss rifles I would recommend a K31 as the first one as the sights start at 100m vs the 1911 models that start at 300m. Also K1911(r) and K1911(c) is poor wording by companies that don't actually know what they are selling. K in the K1911 stands for Karabiner aka Carbine in German. The (r) I imagine refers to rifle (i.e. the long one) but in reality it should be G1911 (G standing for Gewehr, kinda like the Gewehr 98 and Karabiner 98). All the Swiss rifles are good/excellent overall but a K31 is still my recommendation as a first one (my other ones don't get much time at the range, they are more safe queens than anything else).
Click to expand...
 
milsurpo.....thanks a bunch for the very detailed reply. Lots of info in there for me to consider,

Coach


milsurpo said:
SteelCity: With Lee Enfields you also have to be concerned about the condition of the forend if you want to shoot it. Being a two piece stock set-up it requires specific knowledge. Of my latest purchases probably one in three has serious forend problems that required repair. Shooting one with poor fit at the draws or other issues can ruin a forend. Before you buy one do some reading about the method of stocking up. If looking at one in person you can look for a tight fit of rear of forend against "cheeks" of the butt-socket- usually a good sign but not conclusive. You won't really know until you remove the trigger guard how well it all fits together. With a No.4 look for a bit of pressure on the underside of the tip of the barrel being needed to lift it up off the tip of the forend- also a good sign. If you're looking for a piece as a collectors item look for wood that matches the metal in apparent state of wear. There are a great many de-sporterized ones floating around now with prsitine wood, often on a heavily worn barrel/ action. "Fully matching" on a No. 1 rifle includes a serial on the forend as well as action-body ring/ barrel reinforce/ rear sight leaf/ nosecap and, of course, bolt. An original matching bolt is a good thing as the proofing process settles the bolt lugs into the shoulders in the body. They are a very robust, safe design and, truthfully, I have yet to run into one that didn't shoot pretty well regardless of wear. Lots of fun to own and shoot and, of course, a great history behind them.

milsurpo
Click to expand...
 
sunray.....thank you too for the detailed response. Yours, in addition to the others has provided some helpful info.

Coach


sunray said:
If they only list 'Lee Enfield 303 British', you need to know what model and if it has been sporterised. Affects the value and what else may need doing. As in a sporterised rifle you may want to restore, the barrel length matters. 25" isn't cut.
Ask for proof of good headspace on any Lee-Enfield, but especially if you opt for a No. 1 Mk III. Like Lucite says, No. 4 Rifle bolt heads are numbered and sometimes just going up one can fix bad headspace. Operative word being 'can' as in 'might' and if the bolt head is a 3 you're toast. All assuming you can find the number you need at roughly $20 each. On a No. 1 you need a handful of bolt heads at about $22 each(Marstar says send a measurement. Not as easy as they imply. Headspace gauges measure nothing. They're G0/No-Go gauges only) to check with proper headspace gauges(no empty cases, live rounds, bits of tape or anything else.) until you find one that gives correct headspace.
Click to expand...
 
So....this is a No.1 MKIII???

23li9tt.jpg
 
SteelCityCoach said:


...

Next is a Lee Enfield 303 British:

1. What should I stay away from/what should I look for? (not sure of the model other than that as that is all I have seen listed)


With reference to both of the above, other than are the numbers matching and has it been modified in any way, what should I be asking?

...
Click to expand...

There are two numbers to match on a No.4, the bolt and the receiver. Nothing else has numbers from the factory. The obvious places to look are for full wood, no scope base holes on the receiver and a full length barrel in front of the front sight base. After that, there are a hundred little nuances and checks.
 
SteelCityCoach said:
So....this is a No.1 MKIII???

23li9tt.jpg
Click to expand...

yep that is a sporterized No.1 MK III and it looks like it has an uncut barrel so it would be a good candidate for restoration to full military configuration, and assuming the bolt is original it almost appears to be a ww2 mfg one because it has a no.4 style cocking piece but that's just an assumption.
 
maple_leaf.....

Thank you for adding to the conversation.

Coach

maple_leaf_eh said:
There are two numbers to match on a No.4, the bolt and the receiver. Nothing else has numbers from the factory. The obvious places to look are for full wood, no scope base holes on the receiver and a full length barrel in front of the front sight base. After that, there are a hundred little nuances and checks.
Click to expand...
 
polaris said:
Get a K31 pre 47 with walnut stock and a nice 1950 Longbranch Enfield No4, you will not regret your purchase in the future.
Click to expand...

Pre-1944.

MOST post-1944 have a beech stock, but some had been replaced over time by walnut when available.

Join www.swissrifles.com - THE specialist Swiss forum with everything you ever wanted to know in the first sticky on the straight-pull thread.

tac
 
Lucite said:
yep that is a sporterized No.1 MK III and it looks like it has an uncut barrel so it would be a good candidate for restoration to full military configuration, and assuming the bolt is original it almost appears to be a ww2 mfg one because it has a no.4 style cocking piece but that's just an assumption.
Click to expand...

more likely that the slab sidded cocking piece was a subsitituion, FTR some time after original production, which I would estimate as pre 1916.

look a the rear sight it has the windage adjustable rear sight wich was deleted in the Mk III* spec.
 
Does anybody know if any K31's are still available for sale under $300? A buddy wants one and everywhere I mentioned to him are out.

I know one dealer is selling them for $425 and $599 depending on condition but he is wants one for around $250 to $300 in nice condition!
 
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