Milsurps and boresnakes

I'm one of those younger collectors/shooters who likes to READ and LEARN more than I post. Generally, I lurk through this forum but I cant help but say:

SMELLIE, if not for your valuable knowledge I probably wouldn't visit the milsurp forum, let alone the whole site. I believe that all cases of "Enfielditis" are worsened by reading through your contributions in this forum! For every idiot out there who posts out of ignorance, there are MANY people who really appreciate what you do here. If we all lived in your town, you would NEVER have to buy another drink.

I have met people at gun shows, in shops, on the range, etc who are into milsurps. The normal conversation usually includes- "CGN- Milsurp Section" and "SMELLIE"
 
i'm one of those younger collectors/shooters who likes to read and learn more than i post. Generally, i lurk through this forum but i cant help but say:

Smellie, if not for your valuable knowledge i probably wouldn't visit the milsurp forum, let alone the whole site. I believe that all cases of "enfielditis" are worsened by reading through your contributions in this forum! For every idiot out there who posts out of ignorance, there are many people who really appreciate what you do here. If we all lived in your town, you would never have to buy another drink.

I have met people at gun shows, in shops, on the range, etc who are into milsurps. The normal conversation usually includes- "cgn- milsurp section" and "smellie"
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I'm with Smellie here: engage brain before mouth.

I've bought one or two cord-worn milsuprs before. It is a common occurence, especially when the cords are exposed to dirt and fouling, and then not cleaned.

You might as well drag sandpaper through your bore.

By all means, use a bore-snake... just keep it clean and pull it straight through.
 
It would be interesting to see just what qualifications that some of the people here who are a bit more rabid on their views actually have.
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I work at a Holliday Inn Express and I once played a gunsmith on TV...

(no, not really).

I did Co-found a certain website though. My articles on historical firearms are there for all to see and it doesn't even require me to divulge my secret identity :) Same handle.
 
A cut off cartridge case will help prevent damage from cleaning rods and bore snakes. ;)

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Just great. Have we lost smellie to another sock closet tirade like we did a while back?

Good job a-hole.

Now buffdog and twostream are going to have to spend the next month coaxing him out with coffee and pizza.
 
Just great. Have we lost smellie to another sock closet tirade like we did a while back?

Good job a-hole.

Now buffdog and twostream are going to have to spend the next month coaxing him out with coffee and pizza.

It's worse than that! He took the Cat in with him for company!:)
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IBTL
 
If you people had ANY idea how many cord-worn barrels the Army replaced over the years, you would be down on your knees, thanking Claven2 for some very darned good advice.

In future, before starting to poke fun at someone who has MANY more years of experience than yourselves, I would suggest that you READ THE F*(%$* MANUAL.

YES, it DOES happen. Have none of you "experts" ever picked up a piece of ordinary GRAVEL???????? It is ROCK and it is ROUNDED.... and it GOT rounded from WATER, which is a helluvvalot softer than the hemp or jute cord issued with the rifles..... or even that nice "soft" nylon cord on the BoreSnake.

"Brains should be engaged before Mouths are opened."

Read the MANUAL. You can get your own copy by clicking on the appropriate Sticky at the top of the Index for this Forum. It's even FREE.
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BTW, BoreSnake works just dandy if you pull it STRAIGHT through, NO sideways pressure on the muzzle. Quick and easy, just remember always STRAIGHT through.

Have fun!
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Most of the early issue pull through ropes used a steel patch holder which i suspect did the damage....not the canvas ropes.
I use bore snakes on everything I can't easily clean from the chamber end...garand, 10/22, m14, etc. Doesn't do a super job, but definately clean enough to strore for the next outing.
 
Holy over-reacting Batman. I went back through this thread and I can't see anywhere that TB disrespected anyone or called anyone a name, or questioned their knowledge. He simply didn't believe that a nylon cord could actually cause damage to a barrel. I was of the same opinion at one time, just not as opinionated.
So how but a little less drama and name calling.
 
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While we are talking of some slight and minimal damage to the bore of the barrel here, the major damage from using a cord type pull through is actually at the muzzle of the barrel.

We all know that the Crown on the rifling at the muzzle is a very large factor in accuracy. Recessed and 11 degree crowns are popular with target shooters who demand the greatest accuracy possible. You will never see a serious target shooter using a cord type pull through but rather cleaning rods.

There are two problems here. The flexible cord itself picks up debris from the barrel when it is first put into the barrel. This can be a mixture of unburnt powder, glaze from firing, metals from jackets, primer residue, and such, and all of it, over a time, can imbed itself in the cord, whether it be an issue pull through or a bore snake. The average cleaning can never get all of this embedded material out, and the average shooter will simply not take the time and effort to do a thorough cleaning of the pull through or bore snake. This material acts as an abrasive with the cord as a host or carrier.

The second problem is the fact that it is almost impossible to pull through cleaning materials straight without the cord touching the crown and rifling at the muzzle at some time. If you think about the rifle butt resting on the ground, with the cord coming out the muzzle, and your weak hand grasping the muzzle end of the rifle while you attempt to pull straight back with your other hand, then you will see this for yourself. You have to keep the muzzle perfectly centered while you pull backwards. If the patch inside the bore hits a tight spot, then it binds up a bit, needing extra pressure to pull it through, but the muzzle will get out of line, so that the cord is rubbing a bit on the end of the rifling grooves, lands and crown. This embedded abrasive material acts like a grinding or cutting compound, and will eventually wear down the rifling or bore at the muzzle.

I have seen, many times, people trying to use a pull through with the cord coming out of the muzzle at up to a 30 degree angle or more. We see posts here every week that ask about how to crown a rifle barrel on a Milsurps rifle. While we tend to think about our rifles being cleaned under the best conditions, the average Soldier is not really that interested in doing a job like we would do. He just wants to get his bore clean enough that the person inspecting it will not chew his butt. And the wearing process is a gradual one, that in most cases, it takes the trained eye of an Armourer to detect, not some NCO holding the rifle unsteadily up in the air and looking down the bore with his Mark I eyeball. However even a small bit of wear in the wrong place can affect the accuracy of the rifle.

If you want an EXTREME example of this, clamp a steel bar in a vise. Put a bit of valve grinding compound on top, take a clean piece of string, and pull it around the bar using a shoe-shine motion for about 50 movements. Then, look at the groove it made.

Many Nations issued steel cleaning rods for their rifles, but they also issued muzzle protectors (eg. Russia) or cleaning bolts (Sweden.) The Americans had individual cleaning kits, but they also had Squad or Barracks cleaning kits with long one piece rods.

The biggest problem with any flexible pull through systems is not bore damage, but rather muzzle damage because of the inherent problem of trying to keep everything in line, and the ability of the cords to pick up abrasive materials.
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Plain and simple -Smellie respects Claven2's knowledge. Having some dingle-puss nay-say the gent irritates him. But passing on faulty knowledge and mocking those who do know what they are talking about makes him very angry. Smellie very much wants to see accuracy in this forum. Weekend shooters ,who do not care if they actually hit the target, but talk as if they know it all, anger him. They misdirect those who do want accuracy- hurting the sport and hobby. (and the sites reputation.)
janice.
 
WTF just happened here?!?

Strange chit happens, like cord wear. Just don't do it.

Who dissed smellie? I really like his posts, so fix the offense.

Smellie, come back! No really, I love reading your posts; you got great information. Thanks for contributing so much.
 
The Cdn Army EMEI (maintenance instructions) for the No4 rifle devotes considerable discussion to inspecting and testing rifle rifle muzzles for cord wear, so this was/is an issue when using pull-through style cords.

Barrel steel is actually quite soft to permit boring/rifling/chambering, so it can be worn/abraded over time by all of propellant gases, bullets, and cleaning rods/cords. Excessive muzzle wear caused a lot of barrels to be counter-bored in order to allow the bullet to emerge from unworn rifling.

Back when we were still being issued 4x2 patches for the LE to be used for cleaning the somewhat smaller FN barrels. The trick was to tear a strip off the side of the patch before using it. I recall a considerable number of stuck patches when guys neglected to do this. One of the favourite remedies was to tie the free end of the pull through cord to the end of your bed and then pull like a bugger until the patch broke free or the cord snapped, which resulted in a painful, and sometimes costly, trip to the armourer.:redface:
 
Some of you folks would be very wise to adhere to to the experienced advice from people like Smellie and Claven. I for myself, am very fortunate to have had them provide tips and advice to me on my various platforms and questions. Everytime they have been spot on.

In reading the first part of this post, it was clear that they were advising to pull the boresnake straight through the bore and not touch the barrel. Just like the old metal rods would wear when aggressively pushed against the rifling, the same happens with the modern polymers and plastics.

Took a course from Hungry (M14's) and know what?...the first thing he suggested was to use an old 12 gauge casing (no primer) as your cleaning rod guide.

It is truly unfortunate when the inexperienced use these forum formats to gratuitously explain the laws of their physics in their universes and woe to those whom dare to differ with the orders in their universe. They seem to have no qualms with writing their scornful, inexperienced replies.

Me, I prefer to soak up the knowledge from folks like Smellie, Claven, Hungry and others like a sponge. :D
 
Opines are like a-holes, and it seems to me anyhow the larger the a-hole the larger the ego and miss directed opinion. Having said that I would think that anyone that has been around as long as Smellie would have thicker skin by now. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not defending or berating anyone...I'm just "sounding off". I'm sure Buffdog will coax Smellie from the sock closet in due time, though I will admit I'm still confused as to why anyone would have a closet dedicated only to one's sock's...I guess we'll have to wait awhile for the explanation. :(
 
I generally use a bore snake for a "quick clean" method if I am out in the boonies and don't have a teflon coated cleaning rod and foaming bore cleanser handy. I remember reading somewhere that constantly using a boresnake is like wiping your butt with used toilet paper. :puke:
 
I use them (dry) at the range right after I'm done shooting, while the barrel is still warm. I will pull through once or twice and get a little "puff" of carbon from the muzzle when the brush passes through.

Sometimes I will dab some CLP on the tail end if its gonna take a while to get home and do a more thorough cleaning.

I do the same when shooting cast pistol loads, because it seems to get the lead-fouling out easier.

My boresnakes dont seem to get very dirty from this. Maybe I'm just not shooting enough.
 
I generally use a bore snake for a "quick clean" method if I am out in the boonies and don't have a teflon coated cleaning rod and foaming bore cleanser handy. I remember reading somewhere that constantly using a boresnake is like wiping your butt with used toilet paper. :puke:

Is that a bad thing?Laugh2
 
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