Milwaukee PD drop Glock

My comments about training are based on the amount and type of training I've seen a couple of police forces engage in. I'm sure that training regimens vary widely in the LE community.

Of course I have no idea what training the officer in the article has.

Really it's all just conjecture, and another source of minutiae to argue about.

What else is CGN for?
 
Well you are basing your opinion on an article. Let's assume for a minute the folks down there are just about as smart as we are. Let's also assume nobody goes through this much trouble unless there is a good reason. If you get by those assumptions then you might be able to accept the fact they made the best decision they could make for their Department.

As to the speculation as to what caused the jam and all the talk about more training from the couch commando crowd, what are you basing your comments on? None here have any idea how much training this department provides their officers or how much the officers train themselves. Fact is you know very little about the incident except for the fact it was enough for the department to investigate, conclude their might be a better pistol solution out there and act upon that conclusion.

Whether or not the shooting incident had anything to do with the decision is not even known. Hell, the Mayor's daughter may have married the S&W sales rep for all we know.

Before all the Glock apologists jump all over this thread it should be also said the LA Sheriffs Dept just dropped the M&P from their approved list of pistols so I guess you win some you lose some.

Take Care

Bob



That is my point. We are not in opposition. Nor am I assuming anything.

I simply stated you should not make a broad or impulsive decision like that without considering all the options. I hope that is the case.

We could also "assume", since you have asked us to get by a couple assumptions, that Government officials, PR people, people up for election, or someone concerned with liability made a knee jerk emotional reaction "becasue it jammed?"

Since we are assuming, we could also assume the one decision maker who decided this just wanted an excuse to get rid of the Glock and freshen up his armory. Who knows.

You said " you know very little about the incident except for the fact it was enough for the department to investigate, conclude their might be a better pistol solution out there and act upon that conclusion."

True, however, what I am wondering about is "serious study", and how they were they able to remove the human factor from the hardware in what went wrong, and exactly how they came to their conclusion.

As to "the couch commando crowd" or "glock apologists". I don't think advocating for science or proper research, in all cases where it might save an persons life, makes me either.

These people putting their lives on the line should have the best gear AND training.

And they should shoot IDPA! Or anything that gets them more trigger time.
;)
 
If you get by those assumptions then you might be able to accept the fact they made the best decision they could make for their Department.

Had to come back to this on a second read through:

No sir, I did not assume, nor shall assume that they will or did make the best decision for their department.

"The police chief has known about the problem for a year, but he is now taking immediate action following Saturday’s shooting."

This says it all.
 
"As to "the couch commando crowd" or "glock apologists". I don't think advocating for science or proper research, in all cases where it might save an persons life, makes me either."

Problem is you are dealing with emotions and a very subjective subject.

While we are speculating might have just come down to a "Buy America" decision.

Silverado: Good Point.

Take Care

Bob
 
I used to use a Glock 9mm in PPC and I had issues with my left had shooting and factory ammo I would stovepipe
I had to loaded heavier and it got rid of the problem... I don't have the same problem with 40... Not sure I'd say I was limp wristing it.. Just not getting enough recoil....
 
The answer to this problem isn't some magical design, it's more training.

So you assume there are no situations which an officer would be required to use a pistol from a weakened state? awkward angle? injured hand?

A different pistol design may not totally address the situation but I would think that someone would want a tool which always works under the operating environment... isn't that the premise and 'advantage' of a gun which can work when in the sand/mud/underwater.

If you can assume the gun will have to go through those environments I will assume it is reasonable the officer attached at the handle will be expected to go through the same environment which may cause problems with their grip on the gun. I also doubt that regular police forces do not go through live fire training in muddy/sandy/underwater or beatup/disoriented situations.

Edit: point being that not all police officers will be trained to a navy seal standard, and I would expect not all officers are capable of operating at that level so shouldn't they look at other pistols that would fit their needs better? If they just went on basic reliability and firepower I would think every officer would be walking around with an IPSC open gun...
 
So you assume there are no situations which an officer would be required to use a pistol from a weakened state? awkward angle? injured hand?

A different pistol design may not totally address the situation but I would think that someone would want a tool which always works under the operating environment... isn't that the premise and 'advantage' of a gun which can work when in the sand/mud/underwater.

If you can assume the gun will have to go through those environments I will assume it is reasonable the officer attached at the handle will be expected to go through the same environment which may cause problems with their grip on the gun. I also doubt that regular police forces do not go through live fire training in muddy/sandy/underwater or beatup/disoriented situations.

Edit: point being that not all police officers will be trained to a navy seal standard, and I would expect not all officers are capable of operating at that level so shouldn't they look at other pistols that would fit their needs better? If they just went on basic reliability and firepower I would think every officer would be walking around with an IPSC open gun...

I think that lots of weak hand training, training different scenarios etc. would HELP reduce the instances of malfunctions caused by 'limp wristing' or whatever. Wasn't that clear in my post?

LOL at the end of your reply; an IPSC open gun is the antithesis of reliability IMO...
 
I think that lots of weak hand training, training different scenarios etc. would HELP reduce the instances of malfunctions caused by 'limp wristing' or whatever. Wasn't that clear in my post?

Sorry never really clued in on that one at first. If training could help though why not look at giving an advantage through technology as well?

LOL at the end of your reply; an IPSC open gun is the antithesis of reliability IMO...

I would say any of the open guns around here are super reliable compared to the glocks being replaced in the story IMO...
 
The odd thing to me, based on what's there, is that they're switching to a very, very similar platform (it's one of the good things about the M&P) - if you limp wrist an M&P you'll get the identical result to limp wristing a Glock. Also, I'm wondering why Glock replaced the mags - I can't say I've ever seen a stovepipe attributable to the pistols magazine. I think either it's US Federal money with a buy American clause, or the Mayor (or Police Chief's) daughter marrying the S&W rep. The rest sounds just odd.
 
"As to "the couch commando crowd" or "glock apologists". I don't think advocating for science or proper research, in all cases where it might save an persons life, makes me either."

Problem is you are dealing with emotions and a very subjective subject.

While we are speculating might have just come down to a "Buy America" decision.

Silverado: Good Point.

Take Care

Bob


This possibility and the other nepotism based theories are probably closer to the truth than any scientific or practical reason.

TDC
 
Come on TDC. Don't you know 13 rounds of .40 will stop anything!

The perp would have been dead after only 6 rounds of .45.

(or maybe one headshot with .9mm)

;)

F*ck the single headshot with 9mm. Any shot from a 357 or 44 mag revolver would certainly stop the fight. I hear that revolvers are so accurate they guarantee hits with every round, thus negating the need for high capacity pistols or additional speed loaders.

TDC
 
The odd thing to me, based on what's there, is that they're switching to a very, very similar platform (it's one of the good things about the M&P) - if you limp wrist an M&P you'll get the identical result to limp wristing a Glock. Also, I'm wondering why Glock replaced the mags - I can't say I've ever seen a stovepipe attributable to the pistols magazine. I think either it's US Federal money with a buy American clause, or the Mayor (or Police Chief's) daughter marrying the S&W rep. The rest sounds just odd.

I bet Glock replaced the mags as an easy fix as opposed to telling the police chief that he's retarded. Easy face saving move and it looks good for future sales.

TDC
 
I can see your opinion is based on fact, sound logic and/or training. Read the link below and tell if more rounds weren't important.

http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0412/the_peter_soulis_incident.html

TDC

:eek: That BG took 22 hits from a .40 cal, of which 17 were center mass, before he dropped. Thats pretty astonishing.

No amount of training or change to a different "common LE caliber" firearm is likely to change that outcome. Seems like the officer was only successful by making swiss cheese outta him.
 
Well, the officer probably only had 4 rounds left anyways, and since he didn't finish the job with the first 13, it seems hardly fair to put the entire blame on the gun.
 
:eek: That BG took 22 hits from a .40 cal, of which 17 were center mass, before he dropped. Thats pretty astonishing.

No amount of training or change to a different "common LE caliber" firearm is likely to change that outcome. Seems like the officer was only successful by making swiss cheese outta him.

A prime example of shot placement over calibre being the deciding factor. Although I would imagine a solid head shot or two would have greatly reduced the number of rounds required. Naturally, they aren't the easiest of shots to land.

TDC
 
I would not read too much into this; American police agencies change their guns like we change our socks. It is not unusual for them to change guns 3 or more times in 10 years. Tacoma PD dropped Glock after one of their motor officers lost contol of his motorcycle and slid down the street on his gun side and the Glock allegedly fired while in his holster. So they chucked Glock and went to Beretta .40, that only last a couple of years when the new Chief came in and mandated the Kimber 1911 in .45, carried cocked and locked.
 
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