Min Case length minimum

WhelanLad

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Hey example here , the case min length is.... 47mm. .....
There's a Trim to Length normally .010 shorter .

Yeah I'm confusing with different measurements 😆

1.850
Trim to 1.840

What's the minimum you could trim that too, before there's some sort of Issue??

And what's the issue.

Thanks alot.... Super loaded Questions FYO
 
If you have a caliper, open it up to .010" and hold it up to the light to see just how big (small) .010" really is. About the thickness of 3 sheets of paper. In the reloading world .010" on brass length doesn't really matter. In the machining world .010" out of spec might as well be an inch.
 
If you have a caliper, open it up to .010" and hold it up to the light to see just how big (small) .010" really is. About the thickness of 3 sheets of paper. In the reloading world .010" on brass length doesn't really matter. In the machining world .010" out of spec might as well be an inch.
copy. i mean how short could you shorten that case by, before it got some "issue" and what is the issue :)
 
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OP - look at how your chamber is cut - there is a recess cut for the case neck to fit in - look at the end of that recess, where the chamber neck transitions to the "throat" area. You want the end of the brass case to have some room to expand in that recess, without the case neck mouth becoming crimped into the bullet, because the case elongated within that recess, to be "no gap". So, one technique is to insert a bore scope through the muzzle - with a fired, chambered cartridge in place - you should be able to see a "gap" between the end of the brass case mouth and the end of the chamber recess.

On some reformed brass and some "re-chambered" barrels, I am more concerned about having "a" gap, rather than a COAL precise number for "trim length".

I had read various explanations for why brass elongates - maybe there are some cartridges or cases that all reasons apply - maybe there are some cartridges or cases that do not elongate, and therefore none of those reasons apply. I read that there is brass "flow" when the case is fired - moving brass forward from original dimensions, upon firing - I also read the same thing can occur on full-length re-sizing of brass, or that using an "expander button" versus a "neck sizing collet" will "pull" the brass case mouth to be too long - I have never measured any to know what actually occurs - however, I have looked at my fired brass case mouths in their chamber and verified that there was "some" gap left after the bullet was gone - I think a minimum "gap" left is better than a "lot" of gap left, but again, I have never measured target group size versus case mouth "gap", to know for sure. I suspect if the issue is not related to group size, or does not have a measurable impact on group size, the issue is probably irrelevant to the shooter. I do believe that the formation of a "crimp" into the bullet, because of "no gap", is going to raise breech pressure.

Go here:

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/threads/9-3x57-sloppy-chamber.2166654/page-2#post-18117586

in that thread, Post # 28 has a picture of a cerrosafe cast that I did onto this 9.3x57 chamber, compared to a re-formed 8x57 into cartridge, and a 285 grain "bore rider" gas-check bullet - objective of that picture was to show that the bullet would be fully out of the case, before the fat part of the bore-rider bullet hit the lands. You might want to read through that entire thread to form your own opinion. You might want to look at the amount of "gap" that exists in that chamber, between the chamber of that barrel and re-formed 8x57 brass.
 
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copy. i mean how short could you shorten that case by, before it got some "issue" and what is the issue :)
During the Boer war of 1899-1902, DWM, the firm producing 7x57mm cartridges for the Boers, had trouble keeping up with demand. A shortage of cartridge cases led them to use necked down 7.65x53mm brass. This 7mm "kort nek" round acquired a reputation for blowing up rifles. The actual cause is still unclear, since they were fighting a war and the Boers didn't really have lab facilities to do testing, and there are several theories. One is excess throat erosion, another is a carbon ring build-up caused by the throat-case gap. Another theory is that the bullets were breaking up in the bore, as a result of increased friction caused by the erosion/carbon build up.

Whatever the reason, the problem was real, not imaginary. The difference in case length was 4mm, or 0.158". The standard trim-to length for reloading is 0.010", or .254 mm.
 
If you have a bore scope, chamber and fired round and drop the scope down the muzzle .
You will see just how much room you have as far as case length goes.
I strive for a uniform case length as opposed to a certain book length.
Cat
 
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Whelanlad, back in the day when the second dump of M96 and M98 Swede Mausers came into Canada, you couldn't find ammunition or cases to save your life.

There was some old DOC ammo and a bit of surplus that had been pulled apart for the components, but it was all Berdan primed, with corrosive primers.

When the surplus dried up, there was nothing, and none of the manufacturers in North America were making it.

I had purchased several of both models and really came to appreciate what they could do, with ammo they liked.

I had read about the Boers in South Africa having an ammo supply problem and how they contacted a manufacturer in Germany or Belgium to manufacture ammunition for their M93 rifles originally chambered for the fine 7x57 cartridge.

It was a huge order, and the Boers were short of money, so they took a "deal" where the manufacturer had a large quantity of 7.65x53 cases in storage that they wanted to move out of inventory. So they resized all of the cases in and ended up with an overall case length of 54mm, and a 7mm case mouth diameter.

They did some testing and felt they were safe to use in the 7x57 Boer rifles. Those rifles were made for military purposes, with rather large chambers. They sold this ammo to the Boers, and it created some issues, mostly because of the generous "freebore." There were issues on the battlefield with Kabooms.

I decided to do something similar, with 308 Winchester cases. and came up with a cartridge with a slightly smaller base diameter and short neck when resized, trimmed. The overall length of the cases was about 2 mm shorter than the original 6.5x55 case called for and well under minimum length.

I shot a lot of these cases without incident, but I wouldn't recommend this unless you're desperate for components.

I eventually was given several hundred "blank" 7.62 Nato cartridges, and these could be trimmed, neck resized, and fireformed to proper overall case lengths.

Some people will moan and wail about the undersize rim/base diameter, but when fireformed, all was well.

The issue with having cases with less than minimum length is twofold.

One, the shorter case neck will allow part of the chamber to be exposed to ignition gases, which really isn't much of an issue IMHO.

The other issue, which is what the Boers ran into, is how much "freebore" will your rifle have with the bullets you intend to load.

If there is too much freebore and the diameter is generous, under certain conditions the bullet can cant before entering the leade, which could lead to a kaboom.

In your case, where you will be only a few thousandths under the minimum spec, IMHO, there will not be any issues to worry about, other than it may have a negative effect on accuracy when the bullet enters the leade after leaving the case mouth.

Some firearms, such as Tikka, have very tight freebore diameters to the leade, which allows short bullets to enter the leade concentric with the axis of the bore.

If you have a rifle with close to or even right on maximum spec diameters, accuracy may not be up to your needs.

Back in the early days of metallic cartridge design, "loooonnnnggg" necks were the norm, as were long for caliber bullets.

The reason the necks were long was to hold the bullet true to the axis of the bore by holding the bullet until it established itself in the leade.
 
I trim all my brass to .010" below the actual case length, just as you illustrated with you're example. From time-to-time I did trim-off a little more, down to .015". Soft brass such as, Norma, Weatherby and Nosler seem to stretch more whereas, trimming is required more frequently.
 
On several of my rifles I could measure the brass after it has been fired and it would measure well under max trim length. After resizing and dragging the expander ball through the neck, it would stretch the neck beyond max trim length.
I have quit using expander balls and switched to bushing dies for the majority of my rifles. If I have brass that is at max near trim length I will chamber a few pieces and look with the borescope from the muzzle to see how much room I actually have.
 
Cases stretch in the body on firing, with the case head reaching back for the bolt face while the pressured up case temporarily grips the sides of the chamber. It takes place right where the cases walls thin down and cases separate. The amount varies with the amount of headspace there was, which depends on how much you sized the case in the first place, or the difference between factory ammo and your chamber. When you FLS the shoulder is set back to wherever you had the die set and since the brass has to go somewhere it shows up as a longer neck. The amount of growth is minimized by barely bumping the shoulder or a real NS die.
 
I got bored one day and drilled out the primer pocket of a case so the expander ball could fit through the hole. By doing this I could size the casr, pull it over the ball, put case back in the die and reinsert the decapper assembly. This let me size the neck again and pull the ball through over and over. (You’ve got to be pretty bored for this to qualify as entertainment🤣)

The up-shot was that after the first sizing of the body (only one really) there was no further increase in case length even after pulling the ball through the neck 20 times. To me, that would indicate that the sizing ball doesn’t stretch cases.

Is it proof? Don’t know. Is it important? Probably not. Was it marginally less boring than whatever I was bored about before? Probably.
 
Isn't a carbon ring inevitable regardless of case length? Trim length just determines where the ring is going to be?
If you can minimize the gap between the end of the neck of the brass and where the rifling starts in the throat area of the chamber, you also minimize the amount of carbon ring that can build up because there is just no room for it to deposit. That's where the chamber length gage comes in....it allows you the ability to trim the case length to just the right measurement for your chamber without the brass touching the steel.
But you are correct in saying that a ring deposit is inevitable but its width can be greatly reduced through proper case length.
I use a oversized bore mop soaked in Boretech C4 on the end of a chamber rod stuffed into chamber with muzzle down....soak it overnight and the next day remove the mop and give the throat area a brushing with the chamber rod and a oversized NYLON brush to your caliber(about 20 turns). Then check with a borescope....I've have never found a carbon ring remaining after that process.
 
A lot of good information in the posts above. My only contribution is to state that the few times I've necked up brass to another larger caliber (forming .35 Whelen from 30-06 cases, or 9x57MM brass from 8x57mm for example) The result was "short neck" brass that was well under the standard 0.010" short of maximum.

But I don't remember how much less. It made NO difference in accuracy or reliability that I could tell, and I experienced no down side issues.

I keep my chamber and throats clean. When I clean my bore, I clean chamber and throat too. If I was in a "battle" with those short neck cartridges and fired several hundred rounds before cleaning, I may have been flirting with higher pressures from a "carbon ring build up" but don't believe that's an issue with modern sporting rifles and normal shooting and cleaning habits.
 
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Alot of good reading here.

I wasn't worried about .010 gaps.. but more seeing if 2 mm was a issue 😁😂😂

DGY knows why...

I'm scared to ask but FK it.

Why can't I shoot 6x45 in the 6x47 ?
Seat out the bullet further - so it's up the chamber enough...
Just the case mouth is a bit short 🫣

The .38 Spcl and .357mag rings a bell.

😂😂😂😂😂
 
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