Minor Changes to NSCC SR CofF? What say you?

sledge said:
Practice for CAFSAC for the serious shooters, a week's pay and/or a week in Ottawa to party for those that aren't.
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Ok this is about as straight an answer as I'm likely to get lol. So we'll go from here. Yes there are those who use ALL of the shooting in Ottawa(NSCC and cafsac both) as a paid vacation. Its true. I've seen it. But what I've also seen is guys who were mediocre shots OR sort of interested but not really committed, GET more interested and become fantastic shots. Is NSCC a part of that? Definately. Is it used as a practice for cafsac? Definately. But it IS also a nation and world class event. Believe me. I've been to them all. Multiple times.
Practice.....let's think about that. What is it that gets practiced? Well it's positions...trigger control...self management on the line...shooting processes.....mental management....wind calling....performance under stress...etc etc. Are these things good for soldiers? Of course they are. Not ONE of these things has a detrimental effect on ANY soldier whether he's paying close attention or not. Can they be absorbed through osmosis even when you aren't really paying full attention? They sure can. Some of them can ONLY be practiced while actually on a range at a match. Lets look at the most obvious. Wind calling. Everyone here should agree that this is perhaps near the top, if not the top, of the most difficult skills to get. There is ONLY one way to get it. Period. And that is shoot in the wind. How do you gather those wind calling skills when you are on the range? You make a call, shoot in the wind and you see the results of your call. Anyone who has shot on connaught can attest to the insanity that can be the winds there. Flags going in all directions at once, changing from full left to full right in the blink of an eye or going from 20mph to zero in a split second. How are guys going to get those skills? Should practicing those skills cost you points in the middle of a match? Sure at a certain level they should. But how do you get to that level if you are going directly there? With nothing in between? For me the Sighters in NSCC especially and to a lesser degree the BCRA matches are the exact things that have made my wind calling what it is. Hitting a fig12 on a stick at 400m is not easy even with the best equipment and ammo like I have. Imagine it with a 3.4 power elcan, a somewhat beat up rifle and average ammo...
So sure take out the sighters to save time. What else are we really giving up WITH those sighters? I have had this exact conversation with Oakie and several other world class shooters. The consensus is the same with ALL the top guys. We would never have gotten where we are without firing a lot of shots in the wind and seeing the reults. The more the better. And if you get a couple that don't hurt your score at a provicial or national level.....bonus.
 
Discussed the sighters issue yesterday with KC. He pointed out that the extra sighters are of particular benefit to the newer shooters. Part of the learning/training experience.
If matches are running overtime, eliminating sighters isn't the solution.
 
greentips said:
As a team "manager" and a head coach, you have to figure out when and how to "peak" your athletes for the game you want to win. Shooting more does not necessarily means better result.

NSCC should happen some where in in late July and early August, sufficiently far enough from CAFSAC so it will not impact on people performance the last minute just before the big game.
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Yet the same people are near the top every time. 5% of the shooters do 95% of the winning. Why is that?
Because there are guys that have gotten to that level and could shoot 100 matches in a row and STILL win. But they had to get there somehow. They are they people that should be winning because they are the most prepared. They came to win.

Prep time for me is a non factor. Doesn't even register. 1 minute, 2 minutes, 30 seconds....who cares. Just give those learning time to get ready to shoot perfect shots. Over the course of 2-3 day service rifle match making prep time 1 minute instead of 2 saves 16 minutes....are we seriously worries about 16 minutes? To me it's nonsense. Can the matches be streamlined? Hell yes. Get radios that fricken work more than 300m for starters. Lol.
 
tiriaq said:
Discussed the sighters issue yesterday with KC. He pointed out that the extra sighters are of particular benefit to the newer shooters. Part of the learning/training experience.
If matches are running overtime, eliminating sighters isn't the solution.
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See Keith thinks the same thing. I can go through the list of elite level guys and get the same answer 99% of the time. ��
 
I agree on the radios (the delays at the 500 stage and Stage II are the worst) and see the argument on the sighters being a training aide. I had not considered that.

I'm still for streamlining the matches to improve the ability to complete the full program. FIBUA and Movers have value as well.....and plates, well crap that's just too much fun to miss out on (even for a 40-something fella like me).
 
Longshot said:
Ok this is about as straight an answer as I'm likely to get lol. So we'll go from here. Yes there are those who use ALL of the shooting in Ottawa(NSCC and cafsac both) as a paid vacation. Its true. I've seen it. But what I've also seen is guys who were mediocre shots OR sort of interested but not really committed, GET more interested and become fantastic shots. Is NSCC a part of that? Definately. Is it used as a practice for cafsac? Definately. But it IS also a nation and world class event. Believe me. I've been to them all. Multiple times.
Practice.....let's think about that. What is it that gets practiced? Well it's positions...trigger control...self management on the line...shooting processes.....mental management....wind calling....performance under stress...etc etc. Are these things good for soldiers? Of course they are. Not ONE of these things has a detrimental effect on ANY soldier whether he's paying close attention or not. Can they be absorbed through osmosis even when you aren't really paying full attention? They sure can. Some of them can ONLY be practiced while actually on a range at a match. Lets look at the most obvious. Wind calling. Everyone here should agree that this is perhaps near the top, if not the top, of the most difficult skills to get. There is ONLY one way to get it. Period. And that is shoot in the wind. How do you gather those wind calling skills when you are on the range? You make a call, shoot in the wind and you see the results of your call. Anyone who has shot on connaught can attest to the insanity that can be the winds there. Flags going in all directions at once, changing from full left to full right in the blink of an eye or going from 20mph to zero in a split second. How are guys going to get those skills? Should practicing those skills cost you points in the middle of a match? Sure at a certain level they should. But how do you get to that level if you are going directly there? With nothing in between? For me the Sighters in NSCC especially and to a lesser degree the BCRA matches are the exact things that have made my wind calling what it is. Hitting a fig12 on a stick at 400m is not easy even with the best equipment and ammo like I have. Imagine it with a 3.4 power elcan, a somewhat beat up rifle and average ammo...
So sure take out the sighters to save time. What else are we really giving up WITH those sighters? I have had this exact conversation with Oakie and several other world class shooters. The consensus is the same with ALL the top guys. We would never have gotten where we are without firing a lot of shots in the wind and seeing the reults. The more the better. And if you get a couple that don't hurt your score at a provicial or national level.....bonus.
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This is why I love you!! I never looked at it from that angle. of course sighters are practice, and more practice at shooting the perfect shot is never a waste of time! Thanks for this side of the view!!

J
 
I'm hardly an expert. Shot service rifle and NSCC for the first time at age 63, a goal as part of my rehab following a quad bypass the year before. Shot the matches and worked as range staff for a few years. Not much down time when you shoot and work. Other problems now, won't be competing in SR any more.
The long established pattern is to have four relays shoot two matches each morning and afternoon for the first two days (Matches 1-16), a third day for FIBUA/Movers/Plates, then a morning for Stage 2 for the championship. To get everything done in a timely manner, the shooters need to be on time and ready to go. But it is very important that the range staff keep things moving. The Range and Butt Officers and their assistants have to maintain the pace. There needs to be a strong cadre of assistants. If staffing is thin, things slow down. Delays have to be avoided.
As it happened one year, I found myself as the only Butt Officer during Stage 2. Didn't help when the loudspeaker system failed. Some of the voluntold target pullers were recovering from the night before. Jay T jumped right in and his help was invaluable. We avoided a disaster.

I don't know that any small changes would make much difference to timing. If the range staff are on top of things, and the shooters want to shoot and work hard in the butts, things will move along smoothly.
 
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Looking at some math, for each distance serial (4 matches) - pls feel free to check my math and point out if I am making an error here

2min prep x 4 matches + 2min sighters x3 (del, snp, rpd) = 14min per relay x 4 relays is about 1 hour per serial

If the prep time is cut thats 8min per relay x 4 relays = 32min saved per serial which goes a long way to meeting timings I think
(finish a match, bomb your mags while the targets are being plugged with indicators and displayed, roll on to the next set of sighters and match)

It's been a bit of time since I shot NSCC but I assume that the time for delibrates are already cut once everybody is actually done (most of the time folks don't use all of the 15min assigned)

The other big time suck is radioing scores at the 500m stage....or rather the need to repeatedly relay scores over and over and over and over due to garbled transmissions.
What type of radios would solve this and what is the cost of say 6 handsets (FPO and two assistants, BO and two assistants)?
 
Longshot said:
Ok this is about as straight an answer as I'm likely to get lol. So we'll go from here. Yes there are those who use ALL of the shooting in Ottawa(NSCC and cafsac both) as a paid vacation. Its true. I've seen it. But what I've also seen is guys who were mediocre shots OR sort of interested but not really committed, GET more interested and become fantastic shots. Is NSCC a part of that? Definately. Is it used as a practice for cafsac? Definately. But it IS also a nation and world class event. Believe me. I've been to them all. Multiple times.
Practice.....let's think about that. What is it that gets practiced? Well it's positions...trigger control...self management on the line...shooting processes.....mental management....wind calling....performance under stress...etc etc. Are these things good for soldiers? Of course they are. Not ONE of these things has a detrimental effect on ANY soldier whether he's paying close attention or not. Can they be absorbed through osmosis even when you aren't really paying full attention? They sure can. Some of them can ONLY be practiced while actually on a range at a match. Lets look at the most obvious. Wind calling. Everyone here should agree that this is perhaps near the top, if not the top, of the most difficult skills to get. There is ONLY one way to get it. Period. And that is shoot in the wind. How do you gather those wind calling skills when you are on the range? You make a call, shoot in the wind and you see the results of your call. Anyone who has shot on connaught can attest to the insanity that can be the winds there. Flags going in all directions at once, changing from full left to full right in the blink of an eye or going from 20mph to zero in a split second. How are guys going to get those skills? Should practicing those skills cost you points in the middle of a match? Sure at a certain level they should. But how do you get to that level if you are going directly there? With nothing in between? For me the Sighters in NSCC especially and to a lesser degree the BCRA matches are the exact things that have made my wind calling what it is. Hitting a fig12 on a stick at 400m is not easy even with the best equipment and ammo like I have. Imagine it with a 3.4 power elcan, a somewhat beat up rifle and average ammo...
So sure take out the sighters to save time. What else are we really giving up WITH those sighters? I have had this exact conversation with Oakie and several other world class shooters. The consensus is the same with ALL the top guys. We would never have gotten where we are without firing a lot of shots in the wind and seeing the reults. The more the better. And if you get a couple that don't hurt your score at a provicial or national level.....bonus.
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Agree 100%

NSCC is not CAFSAC, but it is one of the only matches I've seen that still break the skills down and provide a world class learning opportunity and match.
 
Bolivar said:
Looking at some math, for each distance serial (4 matches) - pls feel free to check my math and point out if I am making an error here

2min prep x 4 matches + 2min sighters x3 (del, snp, rpd) = 14min per relay x 4 relays is about 1 hour per serial

If the prep time is cut thats 8min per relay x 4 relays = 32min saved per serial which goes a long way to meeting timings I think
(finish a match, bomb your mags while the targets are being plugged with indicators and displayed, roll on to the next set of sighters and match)

It's been a bit of time since I shot NSCC but I assume that the time for delibrates are already cut once everybody is actually done (most of the time folks don't use all of the 15min assigned)

The other big time suck is radioing scores at the 500m stage....or rather the need to repeatedly relay scores over and over and over and over due to garbled transmissions.
What type of radios would solve this and what is the cost of say 6 handsets (FPO and two assistants, BO and two assistants)?
Click to expand...

Having shot numerous times (along with lots of other fools/volunteers) and worked as range staff I needed every minute of the prep time. Saw lots more time wasted by teams not arriving on time, or shooters not paying attention to instructions.

I wonder how much time we can save shaving these little bits vs how much we lose if experienced shooters can't help run matches?
 
Matt K said:
Having shot numerous times (along with lots of other fools/volunteers) and worked as range staff I needed every minute of the prep time. Saw lots more time wasted by teams not arriving on time, or shooters not paying attention to instructions.

I wonder how much time we can save shaving these little bits vs how much we lose if experienced shooters can't help run matches?
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ya where ya been recently Matt K? didn't see ya on the line last year.........
 
I have never seen sighters take 2 minutes, usually people are still screwing around and trying to figure out who cross fired on what target before they​ shoot at 2 minutes. Deliberates are more valuable than sighters when it comes to reading wind which changes so often sighters are just two more best guess rounds down range followed by " I haven't seen my indication".
 
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