Mirage Versus Scope

Doesn't help. For those lenses designed to see "through" mirage, they do so no matter what.

And yes, I have played around to see if I could mimic this so I would have great info for BOTH mirage and target. Doesn't work.

The only way to improve is to play with the mag and hope that with a high enough mag, the mirage becomes more obvious. BUT that creates its own world of problems.

So pick your poison, or better, your style of shooting.

On days where conditions are really twitchy, the time it takes to come off a spotting scope could be enough to miss a condition.

There is no one perfect answer. It's the compromises that you have to settle on.

Given where I will be competing this season, I vote for BOTH being able to see the mirage with "spotter" and scope. Not sure how it will all turn out but it will be a fun experiment.

For those wondering, YES, the target image in mirage conditions with a Sightron IS obscured. I am willing to deal with it as the F class target offers many aiming options but the wind flags usually SUCK.

For me, mirage is my friend and I want all the info I can garner. I know where the center of that black blob is and being off a 1/2" isn't going to make a hill of difference when conditions are moving MOA's in gusts.

Jerry
 
Last edited:
The higher precision of lens shape/quality and optical alignment would also be playing a part in that. As far as I know(and I don't know much) coatings can be made to cancel out certain wavelengths, perhaps like those bent the easiest, and I would not be surprised one bit if the right coatings in the proper sequence/thickness could straighten some wavelengths, at least a bit.
 
SND said:
The higher precision of lens shape/quality and optical alignment would also be playing a part in that.

That would make the target image brighter and more precise, but it would do nothing about keeping it from moving around due to density changes, and motion of target image thereof, in the column of air between the target and objective lens.

As far as I know(and I don't know much) coatings can be made to cancel out certain wavelengths, perhaps like those bent the easiest,

I don't think this is correct. Coatings reduce the surface reflectivity and allow more light transfer thru the lens increasing brightness. They can be formulated to more precisely focus various wave lengths into one spot reducing spherical abberation resulting from various colors bending differently thru the lens.

I would not be surprised one bit if the right coatings in the proper sequence/thickness could straighten some wavelengths, at least a bit.

I assume by this statement you are suggesting the "right coating, sequence, and thickness could reduce the effect of mirage. This is not possible as the target image moves in all colors, variable amounts due to the variable densities of the air between the target and the scope. No constant coating can compensate for varying displacement of target image.
/QUOTE]

NormB
Click to expand...
 
I am truly baffled by the amount of confusion on this point.

Any 5 year old kid who has stuck a stick into ditch water knows the stick looks bent when in the water.

Maybe this thread is the wrong place for people to find the answer Normie.

They just need to ask little kids to explain it.

Hey I’d have my daughter get on the keyboard to explain this but she’s 12 and that’s way too old for this subject.

Or we always have this option.
x-ray.jpg
 
If I set my parallax focus to half the distance to the target, can I see the mirage at the halfway point, and judge wind at that distance?
 
Grizzlypeg said:
If I set my parallax focus to half the distance to the target, can I see the mirage at the halfway point, and judge wind at that distance?
Click to expand...


Yes, under about 12 mph, if you focus @20-25x and @halfway you should get a wind direction based on "mirage" off the ground heat. I think moving the parallax alone will induce aberrations from the lenses and not allow true mirage/wind indication.


The only "real" way to correlate POI with observed mirage and mirage indicated wind is to shoot pounds of lead downrange in that condition and record the results.

Not everyone sees mirage exactly the same from person to person nor gets their brain around it the same way.
 
Last edited:
NormB and BadAsMo, there is little point in asking for any more info from me cause you don't believe it anyways. I have stated my perceptions on this topic several times and each time it becomes more of a witch hunt then anything else.

The only way either of you will be satisfied is to prove any point by yourself through you own process. Just do a side by side comparison and see what your eyes observe.

There have already been other shooters who have supported my opinion on this matter and this debate continues.

What is the science? don't know and since I cant change it anyways, really doesn't matter. I use products that do the job I need and want. Others will use whatever floats their boat.

The visual perception is not mine alone so chat with others that you trust and go from there.

Jerry
 
Dumptruck said:
This why I love CGN; everyone is so open to other peoples opinions and ideas......
Click to expand...

Opinions are not facts. Presenting ideas/theories as fact is misleading. I just asked for any data of processes that manufacturers are using to make lens capable of seeing 'through" mirage. I believe there are none available presently. I am open to be proven wrong by hard facts not by opinion or ideas.

There are mirage reducing optical systems in astronomical reflector telescopes. The main mirror can be flexed by motors that are driven by a feedback loop from a computer that is sampling a star's changing image position. This is due to atmospherics (mirage) in the air between the star and the mirror. Feedback is applied to the mirror to keep the image stationary and the star looses it twinkle.

I know of no way to flex a rigid glass lens or a feedback system small enough to accomplish this presently in rifle optics.

NormB
 
NormB said:
Opinions are not facts. Presenting ideas/theories as fact is misleading. I just asked for any data of processes that manufacturers are using to make lens capable of seeing 'through" mirage. I believe there are none available presently. I am open to be proven wrong by hard facts not by opinion or ideas.

There are mirage reducing optical systems in astronomical reflector telescopes. The main mirror can be flexed by motors that are driven by a feedback loop from a computer that is sampling a star's changing image position. This is due to atmospherics (mirage) in the air between the star and the mirror. Feedback is applied to the mirror to keep the image stationary and the star looses it twinkle.

I know of no way to flex a rigid glass lens or a feedback system small enough to accomplish this presently in rifle optics.

NormB
Click to expand...

Most civilian solutions are proprietary and all government solutions are classified. Several civilian rifle scope manufactures offer this "mirage" filter in their high dollar models. However I don't "have" their data in hand to offer as absolute proof.
 
skypilot said:
Several civilian rifle scope manufactures offer this "mirage" filter in their high dollar models.
Click to expand...

Name a few. I'll await a reply but won't hold my breath. I'm sure this " mirage filter" If they exist would be a strong selling point and long range shooters would be all over their products. It would be a strong advertising point.

NormB
 
NormB said:
Name a few. I'll await a reply but won't hold my breath. I'm sure this " mirage filter" If they exist would be a strong selling point and long range shooters would be all over their products. It would be a strong advertising point.

NormB
Click to expand...

AMEN. Here's a quick result from CounterSniper Military Optical Gunsights Corp:

Mirage & Haze Filter Daylight Coating: InfraShield proprietary Daylight InfraRed spectrum blocker for rays 685nm and higher

You've asked, I provided. Now are you a man and willing to admit it or just another smartass
 
skypilot said:
AMEN. Here's a quick result from CounterSniper Military Optical Gunsights Corp:

Mirage & Haze Filter Daylight Coating: InfraShield proprietary Daylight InfraRed spectrum blocker for rays 685nm and higher
Click to expand...

Well they say Mirage and Haze filter Daylight coating. I can see a Haze filter.. increasing contrast for black and white targets. Yellow orange coatings do that. Infrashield propriety Daylight InfraRed spectrum blocker. Blocks wavelengths of 685nm or higher. Visible light is mainly between violet and red 400-700 nm . This coating blocks invisible heat radiation and would have no effect on target image seen by the eye.

I think their advertisers are lumping mirage in with haze. I need to see some technical specs on this magical image displacement reduction coating.

NormB
 
NormB, I'm approaching this from the idea that a lower end scope is potentially Amplifying the effect of Mirage though its lower end optics and any misalignment. This would leave room for improvement and in this case being able to go to a higher magnification on a high end scope before perceiving the issue. I thought that was why they cost 4-5K+ and people buy them.

As to being incorrect about certain coating combinations having the ability to cancel or reflect light wavelengths(visible or not), maybe we should all stop wearing sun glasses or using sunscreen in that case.

Impossible stuff happens everyday.
 
March has a ring that works but Norm sould stick to building stocks (if it is Barber) and not worry so much about technical specs, they are out there and they work, if you wish an intellectual debate join a univer-city,

we are trying to discuss mirage in a way regular and competition shooters IN GENERAL will understand and perhaps even learn from this exercise,

now they thinking they have to go and get specs from the manufactures and send it to Norm (professor emertius) to be blessed before they can purchase, no wonder you win in the East, you baffle them with questions that do not need to be answered at this level for the purposes we have enunciated.

Jefferson
 
SteveB said:
BadAsMo

I shoot March scopes on all my F-Class rifles. Using them I can see through mirage and get clearer target pictures than most other shooters. Sometimes when I have come off the line and start talking to the other shooters I wonder if I have just shot in the same conditions because I didn't see what they were talking about. I also use the restricted apertures in some conditions. I have won several matches simply because I can "see" the target better. However, I have also lost matches because the mirage is not as apparent to me and I have ignored it costing me points. Now I am considering setting up two rifles. One for light twitchy mirage conditions and one for standard conditions. In the light twitchy conditions I would choose a NF or Sightron in order to see the wind changes bettter and the other would be the March's in order to see the target clearer.

I just went through this discussion regarding the purchase of a highend spotting scope and ended up buying a high quality scope with standard lenses. I have found that when I use the combination of extremely good scope glass and normal spotting scope lenses I can get a very true reading of what is happening.

My 2 cents worth.
Click to expand...


if this is the Steve I am thinking about who lent me a rifle to try F-class and may be headed for the USA this summer, good luck in the states,

and yes setting up 2 guns is what a solution could be, but perhaps setting up 2 scopes and dialing the second scope in at 900 yards (for 800 900 and 1000 yard course) might just be the ticket, then if needed to SEE OR NOT TO SEE (that is the question) you could switch scopes and have the same load ready to go,

a pain YES and can yo screw up YES but is you know which scope is for which mirage, you are bound to succeed,

your most reasonable reply to this suggestion Please

Jefferson
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom