Mirage Versus Scope

[NormB]

NormB, I'm approaching this from the idea that a lower end scope is potentially Amplifying the effect of Mirage though its lower end optics and any misalignment. This would leave room for improvement and in this case being able to go to a higher magnification on a high end scope before perceiving the issue. I thought that was why they cost 4-5K+ and people buy them.

As to being incorrect about certain coating combinations having the ability to cancel or reflect light wavelengths(visible or not), maybe we should all stop wearing sun glasses or using sunscreen in that case.

Impossible stuff happens everyday.

I think I agree somewhat. Better lens (glass and coatings), larger lens more precisely ground, better mounting lead to a brighter more precisely focused target image. This allows the shooter to see the target better through the mirage.The mirage is not reduced the target is just easier to see. Jefferson eluded to this in his post. His 36x weaver was fine until afternoon . It has a 40mm objective and coating standard for a $450 scope. It got overwhelmed . He switched to a Leupold 45x This improved things and the objective is now 45mm and the coating likely better. The image was brighter and more precise. March scopes have at least 45mm and maybe 50mm objectives, use ED glass (I think)and special coatings. These were best of all at the match for afternoon distance. The target image is still bouncing around but you can see it instead of an imprecise blurry image. A 60mm objective would be even better seeing the target image given equal glass quality, coating and grind.

Don't stop wearing sunglasses or sunscreen, just don't expect them to reduce mirage.

NormB

 

[Mystic Precision]

To balance my previous post, SIII10-50 and March at 40X on clear low humidity day. Clarity and resolution of the SIII is pretty close to 95%+ of the MARCH.

Used scoring line and spotter at 500m to determine resolution. Both plenty good for the job.

When the air heated up, Sightron picked up on the mirage much sooner then the MARCH.

This day mirage never got to a point where target viewing with the Sightron became an issue and I went 23 of 24 rds with either V's or 5's. The 4 was downwind by a bit - I can live with that.

I have shot with the same scope in Chilliwack after a light rain and the humidity was so high, my glasses would fog. As you can imagine, mirage was heavy but viewing was still possible with the Sightron. No shortage of air info. Target image of course degraded but aiming in the center and called windage (team practise) was not an issue.

Used a lower mag S&B and the mirage simply dissappeared. Was bizarre to view but the rifles were side by side. You could see the waves with the naked eye but was gone in the S&B. At 600m, target lines and marking were amazingly and surprisingly clear. It was very hard work to find enough info to keep up and I shot badly.

But it was a very nice view...

YMMV

Jerry

 

[Jefferson]

I think I agree somewhat. Better lens (glass and coatings), larger lens more precisely ground, better mounting lead to a brighter more precisely focused target image. This allows the shooter to see the target better through the mirage.The mirage is not reduced the target is just easier to see. Jefferson eluded to this in his post. His 36x weaver was fine until afternoon . It has a 40mm objective and coating standard for a $450 scope. It got overwhelmed . He switched to a Leupold 45x This improved things and the objective is now 45mm and the coating likely better. The image was brighter and more precise. March scopes have at least 45mm and maybe 50mm objectives, use ED glass (I think)and special coatings. These were best of all at the match for afternoon distance. The target image is still bouncing around but you can see it instead of an imprecise blurry image. A 60mm objective would be even better seeing the target image given equal glass quality, coating and grind.

Don't stop wearing sunglasses or sunscreen, just don't expect them to reduce mirage.

NormB

THANKS NORM NOW YOU ARE MAKING SENSE EVEN TO LITTLE OLD ME

thanks again, now we are getting somewhere Jefferson

 

[BadAsMo]

Used a lower mag S&B and the mirage simply dissappeared. Was bizarre to view but the rifles were side by side. You could see the waves with the naked eye but was gone in the S&B. At 600m, target lines and marking were amazingly and surprisingly clear. It was very hard work to find enough info to keep up and I shot badly.

But it was a very nice view...

YMMV

Jerry

There is nothing bizarre about a low magnification scope not seeing as much mirage as a higher power scope. It's perfectly obvious that zooming out will reduce how much of the mirage you can see. You just aren't zoomed in enough to see it.

 

[BadAsMo]

March has a ring that works but Norm sould stick to building stocks (if it is Barber) and not worry so much about technical specs, they are out there and they work, if you wish an intellectual debate join a univer-city,

we are trying to discuss mirage in a way regular and competition shooters IN GENERAL will understand and perhaps even learn from this exercise,

now they thinking they have to go and get specs from the manufactures and send it to Norm (professor emertius) to be blessed before they can purchase, no wonder you win in the East, you baffle them with questions that do not need to be answered at this level for the purposes we have enunciated.

Jefferson

Norm wins because he has about 30 bench rest and competition rifles ready to shoot on any given day and he certainly knows how to use them. Norm was the high point winner for the year in 2012 ORA match competition. He either has (at least one) or has tried every scope mentioned on this thread and many more. He is also not selling scopes so he has no motivation to try to talk the uneducated into buying some high end scope just because he happens to sell them.

As a character witness I have to say Norm is one of the most generous shooters with his time and sharing of shooting knowledge I have ever met.

He has been involved in 100-1000 yard bench rest and f-class since the beginning of time and has developed dozens of wildcat cartridges.

CGNers should think twice and twice again about challenging what Norm believes to be true.

 

[NormB]

OK, OK. I'll let you win the next match.
NormB

 

[skypilot]

Norm wins because he has about 30 bench rest and competition rifles ready to shoot on any given day and he certainly knows how to use them. Norm was the high point winner for the year in 2012 ORA match competition. He either has (at least one) or has tried every scope mentioned on this thread and many more. He is also not selling scopes so he has no motivation to try to talk the uneducated into buying some high end scope just because he happens to sell them.

As a character witness I have to say Norm is one of the most generous shooters with his time and sharing of shooting knowledge I have ever met.

He has been involved in 100-1000 yard bench rest and f-class since the beginning of time and has developed dozens of wildcat cartridges.

CGNers should think twice and twice again about challenging what Norm believes to be true.

I have no issue giving respect for a commitment to the sport. That has no bearing on the topic.

Providing third party commercial claims and eyewitness statements are exactly that. Take them as you will.

There are ways to beat mirage. Just like with wind. Tactically and with technology and we have read posts stating the witnessing of lack of mirage from some scopes and claims from the advertisements of a company.

I would think mirage would be an asset.
Norm, In the spirit of helping your quest for info, here is a clip supposedly filmed with a special 482 mm? lens decades ago to eliminate mirage effects to a degree.

[youtube]ud1zpHW3ito[/youtube]

 

[lejarretnoir]

...As a character witness I have to say Norm is one of the most generous shooters with his time and sharing of shooting knowledge I have ever met.
CGNers should think twice and twice again about challenging what Norm believes to be true.

I think Norm can be a crusty dude at times, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Looking forward to chasing V-Bulls again this year with Norm.

 

[Mystic Precision]

There is nothing bizarre about a low magnification scope not seeing as much mirage as a higher power scope. It's perfectly obvious that zooming out will reduce how much of the mirage you can see. You just aren't zoomed in enough to see it.

Was a 25X mag so should have been high enough. Then consider that humidity was high enough to fog my glasses, loosing the mirage was so very surprising. You could see the waves with the naked eye.

I will say that of all the high end scopes I have used, my fave are the S&B's. The image I see is just so "rich" and the further you go, the better it gets.

But for F class, it is not ideal FOR ME.

I was running my Sightron around 30X that day. Normal is 35X to 40X but it was just too dirty for more

Jerry

 

[Mystic Precision]

Cold bore head shot snapped off a bouncing camel at say 75yds with a No1 Lee Enfield. I want "him" on my team...

The difference of how these scopes allow you to perceive the air is very obvious so if you have spent any time with a range of scopes, you should see what many of us are suggesting.

Maybe it's important, maybe its not but it is self evident.

Not saying any of these scopes is better then any other. The shooter simply has to decide on the features they want and how that will benefit their style and strategy. It can all be found on the line competing and doing well.

The point I am trying to make is choose the scope based on the scope... not the price. And the best way to know what suits your tastes is to climb behind them and try them.

Best way to do that is to go out to your local PRA matches where you will also meet lots of great knowledgeable shooters who can help you on your way.
Jerry

 

[SteveB]

Hi Jefferson

Yes, you used one of my rifles last year. I use a cartridge and rifle combo that allows me to use the same bullet and load combo in multiple rifles and barrels. I have had about 5-6 barrels chambered using the same reamer and they all have used the same load equally well. Mick makes fantastic barrels. Yes, I am taking 2 of them down to the US.

The only issue I see in setting up different scopes on my rifles is that I actually value a combo of features in the March's rather than the ED lenses as optimal for me. Unfortunately, the other manufacturers don't offer the same combo. I would see this as a set-up stopper because I wouldn't want to go into a major match with 2 different set-ups.

I don't find dialing up for the various ranges to be an issue. As I get more experience with the concept of density altitudes, the dialing into the X-ring perfectly the first time becomes easier and easier. So with the same rifles, barrels, bullets, velocities, scope mounts, and ring mounts the concept of different scope for conditions is really not that impossible to do.

Still I haven't found the same combo so that maybe a mute point.

Also, I find I have gotten used to shooting with my scopes at 40 power in conditions when most shooters have dialed down to 20. Gives me free points!!!

Thanks for the luck. Will need it.

Steve