misc stuff about matches, classifiers, etc...

The old rules would have made this a non classifier (GM had to shoot 95% and M had to shoot 85%)

New rules would require the match winner to shoot 90% of the points. I don't think it would ever happen...but if it did...there's no reason it would be excluded from being a classifier.
 
Quigley said:
The old rules would have made this a non classifier (GM had to shoot 95% and M had to shoot 85%)

hey, hey, hey, that 'rule' was dumped a loooooong time ago (at least last summer) ;) It's a red herring in this conversation... :D
 
omen said:
hey, hey, hey, that 'rule' was dumped a loooooong time ago (at least last summer) ;) It's a red herring in this conversation... :D

Not really...

It would have prevented at least 2 soft classifers last year (off the top of my head). I don't remember when it was implimented...but we may have been too quick in removing it.
 
Quigley said:
The old rules would have made this a non classifier (GM had to shoot 95% and M had to shoot 85%)

New rules would require the match winner to shoot 90% of the points. I don't think it would ever happen...but if it did...there's no reason it would be excluded from being a classifier.
And this new rule was adopted after the vote on which system we should use. I don't recall seeing that under options A, B, or C.
I see more people shooting Standard Minor - just so they can get, or try to improve their classification.
Quigley said:
What did happen:

Match winner shot 2 of 5 short/med courses in the 60's and the long course (about 1/3 of t he match points) in the high 80's

If that's not a soft classifier I don't know what is.
So you could spot that 354.1892 of a required 355 match points a mile away, as being an obvious soft classifier. :puke:
 
pmt said:
And this new rule was adopted after the vote on which system we should use. I don't recall seeing that under options A, B, or C.
I see more people shooting Standard Minor - just so they can get, or try to improve their classification.

Actually, it was outlined in the last few versions of the overview that we emailed out to the members. We made it clear that we intended to impliment a check...and we also pinted out that we didn't intend to have the reps vote on it.

pmt said:
So you could spot that 354.1892 of a required 355 match points a mile away, as being an obvious soft classifier. :puke:

We have to draw a line somewhere...and we have to stick to it. 90% seems reasonable. Close enough...isn't good enough. This is IPSC...not Olympic Figure skating :cool:
 
I think that the problem is with one underlying assumption which was made - that if someone wins with less than 90% of all points, that means everyone's scores are inflated. That is clearly not always the case, as this match shows, and as last year's Ont & PQ (almost) Provincials show too. What you have here are false positives. Everyone is focusing on the 'ohh, the winner wasn't consistent, so this can't be accurate', when the reality is that, consistent or not, the winner was still (slightly) better than another person who was also a highly ranked M/GM, who WAS consistent, and had a good match, and would have been enough to class everyone.

You know, this 90% rule would have made sense if it was applied under the old system, when we needed to have a GM and M, and we'd say the GM needed to win, with at least 90% - IF the match had only the 1 GM.

Once you throw in a bunch to shooter at the same level, all competiting for winning stages, with everyone winning some, it's not that difficult to get into a situation where this 90 rule will produce false positives.

To put it bluntly, there are some people (like, say, Burrell, Auger, etc) who are good enough to be the standard even if they aren't kicking ass on every stage in a match, even if they don't get the 90% of the stage points - this system is ignoring that, and treating all shooters/winner as if they were all at the same level, and all needed to have an overwhelming win, in order for the match to 'count.' It's unrealistic, in my opinion, especially in a division like production where there are a bunch of people at, most or less, the same level, leapfrogging each other on stages. Everyone is pointing fingers at me, saying I didn't have a good match because I was up and down on the stages. Maybe the reason I was up and down was because Jamieson and Kent were better on those stages? Why am I expected to win everything, isn't it enough I won the match? There are stages I never do well on, there are stages I always kick ass on it, I get pissed off at people who weren't even at the match telling me 'you screwed up', when the fact was I was pretty happy with my performance, except for 1 Mike and 3 Ds. That's the problem with looking at results and extrapolating match behaviour based on that, it not correct all the time.

People defending this are using the assumption of 'if less than 90 = soft' to drive their arguments, and are ignoring the fact that this assumption fell apart in this match.

Fine, fair enough, you do what you want, but don't pretend otherwise...
 
It's one match Damian...

We're monitoring the resulst...if this becomes a problem we're prepared to address it...after 1 match...we're in no position to make that assesement
 
After a long conversation with Quigley, it has been decided that we will be scrapping the entire system and going with the new perfected system that I personally designed last night while reloading; namely, the R Elliott Improved IPSC Ranking System. Here's how it works:

I will be assigning rankings to everyone in Ontario based on important various criteria such as; size of financial contribution, general likeability, pleasing hair shape, odor or lack thereof, fashion sense, vascularity and posing, and of course whether or not I think you have a cool gun. Please make cheques payable to the R. Elliott Nationals Fund, C/O R. Elliott.

New ranking structure will be as follows in decending order:
Superior Grand-Poobah.
Grand-Poohbah
Poobah
Under-Poohbah
Scooby-Poobah
Dooby-Poobah
Nooby-Poo-bah

Match winners will of course henceforth be known as "Overlords" and will be assigned three Swedish bikini model groupies to carry their stuff around and give them neck rubs. Sadly, since most ranges are sand or soft ground they will not be wearing heels. Female competitors who win matches will naturally be assigned Chippendales dancers…unless they prefer the standard option.

Seriously guys; the system ain’t perfect yet and everyone including the board knows that it will need some tweaking. We need more than one match to establish a new base-line and to see which way things are trending, so they can figure out what exactly it is they need to tweak. Everyone here seems to have a differrent opinion on how it should be, but I don't think there is any one perfect solution so far that wouldn't end up pissing someone off at some level. I say let’s give them a little time to try and sort it all out. By all means provide input where appropriate, but we need to adjust our expectations a little. At least for now.

Just my opinion

R
 
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Quigley said:
It's one match Damian...

We're monitoring the resulst...if this becomes a problem we're prepared to address it...after 1 match...we're in no position to make that assesement

I appreciate this, BUT did you guys go back and, say, apply this standard to the 2006 matches, to see what the results would have been? I just did that (production only):

Feb 26, RA Centre: no
Mar 18, Wenworth: no
Apr 02, Burlington: no
Apr 15, East Elgin: no
Apr 23, Waterford: yes
May 06, Grenville: yes (by 0.3 stage point)
May 14, Peterborogh: yes
May 15, Waterloo: no
May 21, RussellMania: yes (by 3 stage points)
Jun 11, Grenville: yes (by 5 stage points)
Jun 11, Peterboro: yes (by 2 stage points)
Jun 18, Waterloo: yes
Jul 01, Ont prov: no
Jul 19, EOHC: no
Jul 19, Haliburton: yes
Aug 20, Waterloo: yes
Sep 03, PQ prov: yes (by 3 stage points)
Sep 16, Peterborogh: yes (by 7 stage points)
Sep 26, East Elgin: no
Oct 18, Brant: yes
Oct 22, Burlington: yes
Oct 30, Waterford: no
Nov 11, Triangle: yes



so evena level 3 doesn't meet the standard (yes, I KNOW you said you wouldn't apply this to level 3s, but this is clearly an indication of a problem, isn't it?), of the remaining three only one (the Triangle) is a convincing pass. Of the matches which 'passed' a number of them passed by a couple of stage points... So, how many actually were convincing 'passes'? 7 level 2s and 1 level 3 (these are just the results I have/kept, there may be other matches which I didn't look at).

So, at least 9 of last year's classifiers would have been rejected, with another 6 barely making it... So, 15 of last year's matches were bad or questionable/borderline, re their results? (plus the fall level 2 at east elgin (drama daze) was really a level 3 in everything except the name, and that didn't make it either).

Did anyone do this analysis before pushing forth with this rule?
 
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Damian...I'm getting tired of saying this (says Quigley trying his best not to yell)

First...there is more than one Division in IPSC...
Second...we have said continually that we will monitor the results
Third - Regarding low round count stages...anomolies will be magnified.
Lastly - we have made more concesions in the last 3 years for Prod than all other Divisions combined. We're looking at a stem for all Divisions (including Prod)

Actually I have one more :D (in a very soft and calming tone) - It is not our intention to eliminate Classifiers...if we can come up with a system to maintain the number of Classifiers while still eliminating the Soft ones...great. But in the very least...we will remove Soft Classifiers from the equation.

Honestly, you're starting to sound like a broken record (still not yelling)

Your asssment doesn't answer the all very important question...which of the matches you tagged as "no" were actually soft classifiers. When you can answer that question , let me know. In the meantime, we'll deal with the present and the future (not what didn't happen last year)

Insert obligatory happy face here so it's completely obvious that there has been no yelling :)
 
So, if 15 out of 23 are bad or borderline, I think that's a good indication that's simply the reality of Prod shooting in this province... The classification system needs to reflect that reality, not be designed to try and change the results of matches to meet its definitions.
 
..oops still one more.

so there would have been 14 Classifiers in Prod last year...how many would there have been in Open during the same perioid?

...and...of the ones that didn't make it...how many almost made it?

...still not yelling
 
omen said:
So, if 15 out of 23 are bad or borderline, I think that's a good indication that's simply the reality of Prod shooting in this province... The classification system needs to reflect that reality, not be designed to try and change the results of matches to meet its definitions.

The reality is...we still would have had 14 Classifiers in Prod last year.

If we could sign a deal with the :evil: to guarentee 14 solid Classifiers in each Division per year (rememeber...there's more than one Division...also rememebr...I'm not yelling) ...I'd sign it tomorrow...then yell my ass off :rockOn:
 
Quigley said:
Honestly, you're starting to sound like a broken record (still not yelling)

yeah, you and me both, I think...

If you guys come up with a system which is outright rejecting close to half of all the matches in the province, including some of the most popular and biggest ones, I think the onus should be on you to justify the method you chose, rather than asking people to prove that the rejected matches didn't have inflated scores.

I think your argument could be summarized by:

anything with winner getting less than 90% is soft
we have matches with winner less than 90%
we have, therefore identified soft matches
therefore the system is working great!

there is only one thing missing - the link between winner getting less than 90% and the actual scores being inflated. I've seen no evidence of that, in this past weekend's match, in last year's wentworth spring match, in last year's burlington spring match, in drama daze, in the Barrie provincials, etc... This step was omitted, just glazed over, and brushed under the carpet...

yes, I'm sure you can find a match where there was only 1 good shooter, who won with less than 90% of the stage point and where the scores where inflated, but I'm hoping for more than "if it satisfies 1-2 examples then that's almost a proof"... it's not a causal relationship...
 
This might be my first and last post, but here it goes.
Last year it was people complaining about the GM and M shooters not showing up for production
Now when a whole bunch show up it is deemed to not count because the arbitrary number of 90% says so.
It is interesting that when people try to improve through practice so they can actually shoot or try to shoot at their level of classification (even if it is only on a few stages) things don't count because something must have "gone wrong" for them to get those scores.
No offense to Omen, but those of us who have been chasing him for the past few years will continue to do so to the best of our abilities and this might result in more "soft classifiers".
Next it will be people avoiding the matches if there are too many GM or M class shooters unless this 90% rule is rethought.

Thanks
no fancy sign off, fingers tired
 
omen said:
there is only one thing missing - the link between winner getting less than 90% and the actual scores being inflated. I've seen no evidence of that, in this past weekend's match,

I did...no names please (or I may inadvertantly start yelling)
 
mrclean said:
This might be my first and last post, but here it goes.
Last year it was people complaining about the GM and M shooters not showing up for production
Now when a whole bunch show up it is deemed to not count because the arbitrary number of 90% says so.
It is interesting that when people try to improve through practice so they can actually shoot or try to shoot at their level of classification (even if it is only on a few stages) things don't count because something must have "gone wrong" for them to get those scores.
No offense to Omen, but those of us who have been chasing him for the past few years will continue to do so to the best of our abilities and this might result in more "soft classifiers".
Next it will be people avoiding the matches if there are too many GM or M class shooters unless this 90% rule is rethought.

Thanks
no fancy sign off, fingers tired


NetK (word scramble so nobody knows who you are) ....remember.....no yelling :bigHug:
 
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