MK 1 No4 Why is this so complicated?

M

mike12

Member
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Okay a while back I posted a thread about my recently purchased No 4, I took it to a local Gun Shop to have it checked out. First they called and said the headspace was too far out and there was nothing they could do to fix it.

So, after doing a little research I called them back up the next day to ask about switching the Headbolt as many of you said was a common fix. At this point the store said that there was a mixup and my rifle was fine and ready to be picked up. When I got there they explained that they had switched the bolt and bolthead and it was now within range. I asked for my original bolt back as the rifle had matching numbers, left in a hurry and was now even more concerned.

Thinking a second opinion wouldn't hurt, I asked for some recommendations from some of our members about another Gunsmith and got several suggestions for a guy who was really good and had done some work for them on their Enfields. So, I took it there and explained what had gone on with the first Gun shop, I left both Bolts there and asked him to confirm that the headspace was safe.

Today he called and said that the headspace is way out and neither bolt/ bolthead fixes it, nor would a larger one help. Before you ask I did confirm that he using military specs. He said the issue was the wear on the receiver and the only way he could fix it was to do some welding at the wear points at a cost of what I paid for the rifle.

His words were it would probably fire okay but if it was his own gun he would not use it.

So, now I have to send it back to the place I bought it, for an exchange providing they agree that the headspace is out, would they not have checked that before selling it? And who's to say the replacement won't have the same issue?

Why is this so complicated?
 
Do you handload?
If so, it is easy to make cartridges that compensate for the excess headspace, and which may be safely fired.
I would not even consider welding the locking surfaces of either the bolt or receiver to correct headspace.
Businesses selling surplus firearms may or may not check headspace. Worth asking?
Returning the rifle and starting over might be an option.
 
No I don't handload it is a little beyond my current knowledge, maybe down the road.

Good point about asking before buying, I just assumed that "Good to Very Good" condition would mean the the rifle was in good operating condition.
 
I think that if the situation is truly as described the better alternative would be to have a good gunsmith do some work on a bolt head. I am pretty sure that one could be timed to set up headspace properly.
FWIW 303 is headspaced on the rim so handloading doesn't really address the issue.
 
I may be compleatly wrong so someone correct me If I am.

So, I know that North America specs are way different then the European ones in terms of ammo. So, would the guages the Smith is using be in the NA specs and not the EU ones?

What I am getting at is that the EU made .303 brass has a very noticeably thicker rim compared to NA made brass, so i would imaging the guages the Smith used would show acces head space due to the guages being narrowr?

Once again, this is a question and not an answer lol.
 
I have also heard this about EU and NA specs, however if I'm using NA ammo like Winchester Super X, would'nt I want the NA specs?
 
OP,Am I missing something or have you had 2 gunsmiths tell you that not only is the headspace wrong but that the receiver is also badly worn?.....If that is the case, if I were you I would have both smiths sign a drafted note{drafted by yourself} indicating what is wrong with this rifle,how much it would cost to repair and a testimonial as to describe this rifle.i.e..poor,fair,non-servicable in present condition. Take these affidavits/testimonials to whomsoever sold you the gun and ask for your money back. Anyone with a grain of honesty would apologize,refund your money and promise to either repair the gun or destroy.
If you run into any resistance the Testimonials will hold water in a small claims court if it has to go that far. There are LOTS of No4Mk1's and 2's out there you shouldn't have to wear this one bud. IMHO:D
 
The seller has agreed to accept the rifle back, they are going to do their own inspection and then decide whether there is a headspace issue or not. If there is they will exchange the rifle for another.

My concern is that if they sold the rifle before as Good to Very Good Condition, what are the odds they will agree that the headspace is out and who's to say that the replacement will be much better.

Is it me or is Headspace a bit of a grey area for these rifles.
 
A feeler gauge is never a grey area....it's either good or not, on this premise I would request my money back instead of another "very good" rifle from this seller. The worn receiver should also be taken into account here,headspacing aside this guy bought a worn out gun from this seller and was told it's "good to very good" and it's not ,it's tired iron! Don't deal with this seller {whoever he or she is} if you don't get your money back,let a judge figure it out.
 
mike12 said:
The seller has agreed to accept the rifle back, they are going to do their own inspection and then decide whether there is a headspace issue or not. If there is they will exchange the rifle for another.

My concern is that if they sold the rifle before as Good to Very Good Condition, what are the odds they will agree that the headspace is out and who's to say that the replacement will be much better.

Is it me or is Headspace a bit of a grey area for these rifles.
Click to expand...


The company you bought from has an excellent reputation. I wouldn't worry.
I'll let someone else comment on grey areas of headspace, but it does sound like a description of me... :D
 
I never mentioned where I purchased the gun from and I'm not questioning anyones reputation. There is just as much of a chance that the Gunsmiths I used were wrong and the seller is in the right, I'm just saying that at this point I don't know who to believe.

So, far the seller has gone above and beyond to assist in resolving the issue.
 
Good to Very Good Condition has nothing to do with how safe the rifle is to shoot. It has to do with the condition of the stock and metal finish. Places like Century Arms assembled thousands of Lee-Enfields out of parts bins and sold 'em cheap. A lot were in great condition, except Century didn't bother to check the headspace, at all.
"...is Headspace a bit of a grey area for these rifles..." Nope. It's either good or it isn't. The problem is that removable bolt head. You never know if it has been changed at some time. A matching bolt guarantees nothing either. That just means that bolt body came with the rifle when it was new. Only proper headspace guages, not 'feeler guages', will tell you if the headspace is ok. Read this. http://www.enfieldrifles.ca/ti3.htm
SAAMI specs(Commercial) are less than military spec for the No-Go guage. The same for the 'Go' guage. There is no SAAMI 'Field' spec. CF weapons techs didn't use the 'Field'.
"...do some welding..." Run away from that guy. Welding isn't how a Lee-Enfield with bad headspace with a #3 bolt head gets fixed. Still costs a pile of money.
"...let a judge figure it out..." Cost's a fortune to sue anybody.
 
I can accept the fact that a private seller may list a gun's condition based on appearance, but from a dealer? I expect that as a dealer the condition should include the operation of the gun, or as many dealers that sponsor on this forum; list the gun as "as is". Every used gun I have ever bought from a store came we a description which included whether the gun was safe.
 
"...included whether the gun was safe..." Milsurps are different. There are no places for a dealer to buy new parts. Most are sold 'as is' too.
 
I ran into a similar situation with my No. 4 MkI*. A local gunsmith told me it was unsafe to fire, without getting another bolt head. When I asked the guy how he had checked the headspace, he said he put successive layers of masking tape on the head of a cartridge until he could no longer close the bolt!!!??:HR: I thanked and paid him for his time, and went home a bought a Field Gauge off eBay. When it arrived, I checked the headspace myself, and is was fine. I have shot this rifle with no probelm. I shot it just today in fact.

The problem was that I had previously taken my Arisaka to the same gunsmith and he said it was unsafe too. After the Lee Enfield thing, I took the Arisaka to another (better) gunsmith, Del Selin's in Vernon, and guess what - the Arisaka is ok too!

I think you might be better off getting your own headspace gauge like I did. I can understand a gunsmith not have a headspace gauge for a 7.7mm Arisaka, but not having one for a .303 British is unforgivable. Either that or find a better gunsmith.
 
Sunray; Good to very good description has EVERYTHING to do with how the firearm performs! I concede your feeler gauge/headspace gauge point....they both measure tolerances in.001" though {headspace gauge is a feeler gauge by definition}.
" Welding,run away from that guy" OP please correct me if I'm wrong,but I think the smith was referring to how to build up the worn receiver...not correcting headspace via welding:eek:
" let a judge figure it out"....it'll cost a fortune.......This is always a last option and was suggested as such{from the sounds of it the seller is trying to make reparations} However SMALL claims court is only a nominal court fee that can also be awarded to you if you ask,as can your time off work,as can any legal expenses{you don't need a lawyer} You will have to pay for advice however. Any monies owed and for you to be made whole by the court....have receipts organized and at the ready. The whole ordeal won't cost you any $,grey hairs are another subject though:D
 
mike12 said:
Why is this so complicated?
Click to expand...

The Lee Enfield series of rifles is one of the most loved and reviled firearms of all time for being exactly that - complicated. The tips, tricks and secrets to making thses things work properly have filled a couple large books and a lot of small ones. I've aquired a couple of very nice rifles from first timers like yourself who just weren't up to the level of skill it takes to make them run. They can be a real downer for a first milsurp.

Personally I would suggest you dump the Enfield and get a Mosin. They're pretty much idiot proof and there's cheap ammo to be had. (No I'm not suggesting you're an idiot.)

sunray said:
"...included whether the gun was safe..." Milsurps are different. There are no places for a dealer to buy new parts. Most are sold 'as is' too.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Unreasonable expectations cause more grief in this hobby. "As is, where is" Did you return the rifle and get turned down for a replacement? Nope. Save your kvetching for then.

plinker 777 said:
Sunray; Good to very good description has EVERYTHING to do with how the firearm performs! I concede your feeler gauge/headspace gauge point....they both measure tolerances in.001" though {headspace gauge is a feeler gauge by definition}.
" Welding,run away from that guy" OP please correct me if I'm wrong,but I think the smith was referring to how to build up the worn receiver...not correcting headspace via welding:eek:
Click to expand...

Welders, "feeler guages" and Small Claims Court? Jeezus you guys.

.
 
cie said:
.....FWIW 303 is headspaced on the rim so handloading doesn't really address the issue.
Click to expand...

Headspace in a Lee Enfield is controlled by the gap between the barrel face and the bolt face. Standard acceptable gap would be between .064, and .068. Military reject is at .074. Cases fired in rifles with generous headspace will often show signs of incipient separations, and cannot be reloaded. If ammunition is to be reloaded, it is desirable for hedspace to be as tight as possible, in order to minimize incipient or actual case separations.
If a Lee Enfield's headspace is excessive, ammuntion can be handloaded to work around the problem. Instead of using the barrel/bolt gap to control headspace, the cases are sized so that the cartridge headspaces as if it were rimless. The easiest way to do this is to start with once fired brass. Carefully inspect it for incipient separations. If the brass has been fired in a different rifle, and will not chamber freely in the rifle at hand, this can be advantageous. Size the cases until the the bolt will just barely close on them. This will keep the casehead against the bolt face when the rounds are fired. Once fireformed to the rifle, necksize or partially fl size. Do not set the shoulder back, and recreate a condition of excess headspace.
Another method that has been used is to snap a little O ring over the case, seating it just in front of the rim. This will hold the case against the bolt face and allow fireforming, the shoulder being blown foreward to fit the chamber.
 
1) What make is the No.4? Brit, US, Canadian, Pakistani?

2) If it was a dealer and two gunsmiths could not make it right, ask for a return.

3) Any gunsmith suggesting welding to the locking recesses will cause me to run, (not walk) away and never come back. This is not professional grade advice. Avoid that hack.

4) It couldprobably still be handloaded.

5) What is the bolt head number? If a 1 or a 0, then it's probably fixable if the gunsmith had a decent stock of parts. It sounds to me like neither Gunsmith you used knew much about Enfields.
 
Well - The question begs - did both smiths use a field gage ie 0.074 in. Say gunsmith #1 found the rifle failed on field. He doesnt have any larger boltheads (not unusual), so he scrounges around and finds a complete bolt - which passes.
It goes to smith #2 who uses a tighter commercial gage, and it fails. He doesnt have any larger bolt heads either, so... Recommending a weld fix is gomer.
Thing is, as Claven mentioned, most gunsmiths in business today dont know LE's very well and dont have any parts - particularly #2 and #3 boltheads! As a matter of interest, what boltheads do you currently have?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom